2014 Ukrainian Maidan Revolt: News, Views, Photos & Videos

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delft

Brigadier
Well, apparently Putin believes they will win those free and fair elections or he would not have gone to the expense to "intimidate" the Ukraine and divide the Crimea away from the Ukraine, so yes I do believe that the Ukrainians have no desire to re-enter the Soviet Union. Putin's invasion of the Crimea and taking the PR hit, have been to "intimidate" and muscle the situation to Russia's advantage. I believe the Ukrainians have no allusions about Putin's intentions, nor should you.
When the Ukraine was set up after the demise of the Soviet Union the economy was reorganized in a way that maximized corruption. Its parliament is largely controlled by a small number of oligarchs. President Yanukovich lost in parliament when one oligarch with 40 members of parliament changed sides, followed by others. The oligarchs can have been bribed or blackmailed. No doubt the NSA has been reading all their communications for years. So is it democratic to remove a democratically elected president on the say so of a bunch of oligarchs and then install a regime that doesn't resemble in its composition the parties in the parliament the people have voted for?
And what reason do you have to believe that the election in May will be free and fair? No doubt it will be called so by Western governments and news agencies when the result is to their liking. I have heard Putin called a dictator, by the BBC, just because his policies are not liked by Western government and without regard for the views in the Russian parliament or among the Russian voters.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
When the Ukraine was set up after the demise of the Soviet Union the economy was reorganized in a way that maximized corruption. Its parliament is largely controlled by a small number of oligarchs. President Yanukovich lost in parliament when one oligarch with 40 members of parliament changed sides, followed by others. The oligarchs can have been bribed or blackmailed. No doubt the NSA has been reading all their communications for years. So is it democratic to remove a democratically elected president on the say so of a bunch of oligarchs and then install a regime that doesn't resemble in its composition the parties in the parliament the people have voted for?
And what reason do you have to believe that the election in May will be free and fair? No doubt it will be called so by Western governments and news agencies when the result is to their liking. I have heard Putin called a dictator, by the BBC, just because his policies are not liked by Western government and without regard for the views in the Russian parliament or among the Russian voters.

and why Master Delft would you suspect corruption in a US/Western orientation that is out in the open, and not in a Russia/Putin orientation that seems to be "intimidation" driven????, given that Putin's reputation is that he is as pure as the driven snow????? one of the reasons I suggested a mano a mano confrontation between Snow White and the Sneaky Bear?
 

Rutim

Banned Idiot
When the Ukraine was set up after the demise of the Soviet Union the economy was reorganized in a way that maximized corruption.
The corruption was maximized by Soviet regime. It only stayed the same way all along in Ukraine. Few countries in Eastern Europe had supressed it from daily life when you had to pay everyone (doctors, policemen, education etc) and it stays in the limits known from Western Europe - when big money are involved and it comes from countries budget. In Ukraine you would witness it from the time when you had passed the border and you would have to pay the first police patrol that would stop you. Basically the same situation as in Belarus and Russia right now. Many Ukrainians had been pissed looking at countries like Poland, Balt countries, Slovakia or Hungary where it had diminished and Ukrainians still have to deal with it on their daily, normal life all along like in the old times. That's the main reason why so many normal people had protested in the last months.
 
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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
oligarchs oligarchs oligarchs.
how does President Putin keep power in Russa? oligarchs. They installed him and for a few they underestimated him.
Yanokovich made a move because his oligarchs told him to, he signed the deal with Russia and what happened? Were those oligarchs in the streets? No they were people. The oligarchs hiding behind locked gates watching as the movement of regular citizens said no! unhappy with what was happening. Now they changed their minds. The oligarchs realized that if they followed Yanakovich it would not just be him getting death threats. The old wall, you know the one from the revolution yeah that's the one would be dug up and one by one. Against the wall they go. So they changed their minds and when Yanocovich kept to it he had to go. Government is by the will of the people and the people chose. They said no deal with Russia. And the oligarchs heard them.

now I ask you if the parliament said suddenly tomorrow morning, Yanokovich your president come back, would he come back? Could he come back?
no. No he could not. He fled the country and ran to Russia. He is not a leader, he broke and ran away first chance he got. A serious crisis and he ran to Putin like a bullied child runs to his mother.
is that a government that could last? Those who remained may be oligarchs but they realized that the people were not pleased. Remember Delft unhappy people usually only get more unhappy and given the situation on the ground they were getting seriously unhappy. What we saw was a modern day French revolution in the making. How democratic would that have been?
you and Russia my not like it but it was the same thing that turned the France into a republic, The American Colonies into a nation, the Russians and Chinese communist. The people were sick of what was and made a change.

A leader is human. They can die, they can faultier they can sin and usually do. But the fact is they have to ride it out. The second they flee and leave the nation in crisis is the second they have proven that they are not a leader.
Yanokovich could have left Kiev and set up shop with the prorussian east. But he totally skipped past that.
now what? Hmm Russia moves into the Crimea. It says that the Crimea is Russia and moves irregulars in.
and so what is the point now? Will Russia move in and restore Yanokovich? And if they do what legitimacy is there then? A man who has proven that when in doubt run away. Is reinstated into power by Russian military force, Russian military force who would have to remain for the security or the Yanokovich regime... But who would really be the leadership? Kiev? Sevastopol? Or Moscow.
Russian Military force moves in and imposes a treaty that bars any trade with the EU with a massive tariff regime, and sets the Ukraine solidly as "Partner" state with Russia... I am sorry is that any different from the Annexation of the second world war?
lets see Irregular forces on the ground of highly suspect origins wearing and using military equipment of the nation with whom the new "union" is about to be made... Gosh very 1930s
A powerful strongman moves to secure territory as he is worried about the safety of ethnic groups... How Noble.. And sounds familiar...
he moves forward and positions more forces beyond the lines of demarcation set for him.
seriously. I am seeing alot of worry here and you want to cry over spilled milk.
the old government of Ukraine is gone a new one is stabilizing. If the old one tried to step back in the nation would break down as is the nation could still breakdown as Russia aims to provide "Stability" under the Cross of St.George and the barrel of the Kalashnikov.
 

delft

Brigadier
and why Master Delft would you suspect corruption in a US/Western orientation that is out in the open, and not in a Russia/Putin orientation that seems to be "intimidation" driven????, given that Putin's reputation is that he is as pure as the driven snow????? one of the reasons I suggested a mano a mano confrontation between Snow White and the Sneaky Bear?
I don't have to assume that Putin is as white as driven snow. It is quite clear that the EU system is corrupt with little influence from either the member state parliaments or the European parliament. The 15000 odd lobbyist have more influence than the about 760 members of the European parliament.
The trouble in Ukraine began about an association treaty proposed between the EU and Ukraine. The proposal is contained in 1500 pages and contained a limited reduction in the obstacles for export from Ukraine to the EU but full free trade in the other direction thus setting Russian export to the Ukraine at a disadvantage. The advantages to the Ukraine would of course accrue to the oligarchs otherwise their members of parliament wouldn't vote for it. No advantage would so remain for the Ukrainian people. The proposal also included accession of the Ukraine to the military organisation of the EU, an organisation only on paper because it will not be allowed to compete in any way with NATO, but probably to be used to winkle the Russian Black Sea Fleet out of Sevastopol. So the Russian interest is clear and that's why Russia offered $15b, an amount much larger than the EU can afford.
When the proposal was rejected there followed a long period of demonstrations with the organisation of which Victoria Nuland was clearly involved. It ended with a lot of violence with many dead and wounded and the flight of Yukanovich. Wrt that violence the foreign minister of Estonia has said, in a telephone conversation with Baroness Ashton, that he had heard from a doctor treating the wounded in a hotel on Maidan square that both protesters and the police battling them were shot by the same snipers. That conversation was intercepted and published by the Russians but confirmed by the foreign minister. And the Prime Minister in the current regime in Kiev was apparently selected by said Victoria. The method reminds me of the way CIA and MI6 succeeded in removing the Iranian democracy and its Prime Minister Mossadecq in 1953 and replacing it and him with the Shah dictatorship.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
And what reason do you have to believe that the election in May will be free and fair?

Presumably there will be a number of observer groups there. Or are you going to say that every organisation that monitors elections is corrupt? Is there anyone you trust who could conceivably monitor what's happening?

I have heard Putin called a dictator, by the BBC, just because his policies are not liked by Western government

He's probably called a dictator because he acts like one - e.g. suppressing political opposition to his rule. You can complain about the free world not being "free", but in that part of the world you have the right to say that without fear of arrest. If you're a full citizen of a country like the US or a European state, you have the right to stand for election, regardless of your politics (bar being a Nazi in Germany). If you were German and were mounting a serious challenge against Angela Merkel, she might not like it but she wouldn't have you thrown in jail on trumped-up charges. If you tried doing that in Russia, however, I doubt you'd last long before Putin's allies passed a law to disqualify you, or simply had you arrested on "corruption" charges or something else.

Maybe we should get back to the topic on hand. What does the issue of corruption in the Ukraine have to do with Putin's seizure of the Crimea and his threat to Ukraine as a whole? Russia is corrupt too - presumably Putin wouldn't agree that was reason to annex Siberia or threaten Russia.
 

Franklin

Captain
Interesting times. Today is referendum day in the Crimea and tomorrow is sanctions day for the US. I'm not sure what kind of sanctions the Americans are thinking about but according to this Zerohedge article the Russians has already removed most of its money out of the West.

The Russians Have Already Quietly Pulled Their Money From The West

Earlier today we reported that according to weekly Fed data, a record amount - some $105 billion - in Treasurys had been sold or simply reallocated (which for political reasons is the same thing) from the Fed's custody accounts, bringing the total amount of US paper held at the Fed to a level not seen since December 2012. While China was one of the culprits suggested to have withdrawn the near USD-equivalent paper, a far likelier candidate was Russia, which as is well-known, has had a modest falling out with the West in general, and its financial system in particular. Turns out what Russian official institutions may have done with their Treasurys (and we won't know for sure until June), it was merely the beginning. In fact, as the FT reports, in silent and not so silent preparations for what will be near-certain financial sanctions (which would include account freezes and asset confiscations following this Sunday's Crimean referendum) the snealy Russians, read oligarchs, have already pulled billions from banks in the west thereby essentially making the biggest western gambit - that of going after the wealth of Russia's 0.0001% - moot.

From the FT:

Russian companies are pulling billions out of western banks, fearful that any US sanctions over the Crimean crisis could lead to an asset freeze, according to bankers in Moscow.

Sberbank and VTB, Russia’s giant partly state-owned banks, as well as industrial companies, such as energy group Lukoil, are among those repatriating cash from western lenders with operations in the US. VTB has also cancelled a planned US investor summit next month, according to bankers.

The flight comes as last-ditch diplomatic talks between Russia’s foreign minister and the US secretary of state to resolve the tensions in Ukraine ended without an agreement.

Markets were nervous before Sunday’s Crimea referendum on secession from Ukraine. Traders and businesspeople fear this could spark western sanctions against Russia as early as Monday.

It probably will. What it will also do is force Russia to engage China far more actively in bilateral trade and ultimately to transact using either Rubles or Renminbi, and bypass the dollar. Perhaps even using gold, something which the price of the yellow metal sniffed out this week, pushing itself to 6 month highs. It will also make financial ties between the two commodity-rich nations even closer, while further alienating that "imperialist devil," the US.

Of course, the west thinking like the west, and assuming that all that matters to Russia is the closing level of the Micex, believes that a sufficient plunge in Russian stocks would have been enough to deter Putin. After all, the only thing everyone in the US cares about is if the S&P 500 closed at yet another all time high, right?

What the west didn't realize, as we predicted a month ago, for Putin it is orders of magnitude more important to have the price of commodities, primarily crude and gas, high than seeing the illusion of paper wealth, aka stocks, hitting all time highs. Especially since in Russia an even smaller portion of the population cares about the daily fluctuations of the stock market. As for the oligarchs, if there is someone who will be delighted to see their power, wealth and influence impacted adversely, if only for a short period of time, it is Vladimir Vladimirovich himself, whom the west misjudged massively once more. Not to mention that the general population will be even more delighted, and boost Putin's rating even higher, if these crony billionaires are made to suffer by the west, if only a little.

(Here we would be remiss not to comment on his easy it supposedly is for Obama to freeze the assets of a few corrupt Russian billionaires, and yet the very proud Americans who nearly brought the entire financial system to the brink in 2008, are now richer than ever.)

In the meantime, some of Russia's oligarchs are effectively welcoming the challenge. Bloomberg reports:

Alisher Usmanov, the country’s richest person, controls his most valuable asset, Metalloinvest Holding Co., Russia’s largest iron ore producer, through three subsidiaries, one of which is located in Cyprus, an EU member nation. The 60-year-old also owns a Victorian mansion in London that he bought in 2008 for $70 million, according to a May 18, 2008, Sunday Times newspaper report. He’s lost $1.5 billion since the crisis began, according to the Bloomberg ranking.

“We are concerned with the possible sanctions against Russia but don’t see any dramatic repercussions for our business,” Ivan Streshinsky, CEO at USM Advisors LLC, which manages Usmanov’s assets, including stakes in Megafon OAO and Mail.Ru Group Ltd., said in an interview at Bloomberg’s offices in Moscow today.

“Mail.Ru and Megafon revenue is coming from Russia and people won’t stop making calls and using the Internet,” he said. “Metalloinvest may face closure in European and American markets, but it can re-direct sales to China and other markets.”

Great job, Obama: you just pushed Russia and China even closer by necessity! Furthermore, it should come as no surprise that while Russians were pulling their money from the west, western firms were getting out of Dodgeski.

One senior Moscow banker said 90 per cent of investors were already behaving as if sanctions were in place, adding that this was “prudent exposure management”.

These moves represent the flipside of the more obvious withdrawal of western money from Russian markets that has been evident over the past fortnight.

Traders and bankers said US banks had been particularly heavy sellers of Russian bonds. According to data from the Bank for International Settlements, US banks and asset managers between them have about $75bn of exposure to Russia.

Joseph Dayan, head of markets at BCS, one of Russia’s largest brokers said: “It’s been quite an ugly picture in Russian bonds the last few days and some of it has to do with international banks reducing exposure.”

Although foreign banks have not yet begun cutting credit to Russian companies en masse, bankers said half a dozen live deals to fund some of Russia’s biggest companies were in limbo as lenders waited to see how punitive western sanctions would be.

So the bottom line is that Russia, thinking a few steps ahead, already has withdrawn the bulk of its assets from the West, and why not. Recall that a year ago it was revealed that the same Russians who were supposed to be punished in Cyprus had mostly withdrawn their funds in advance of the bail in: they tend to know what is coming. It was the ordinary Cypriot citizens, who had done nothing wrong, who were most impaired.

And so while the Russian response is already known, we wonder just how true is the inverse: just how prepared is the west, and especially Europe, to exist in a world in which a third of Germany's gas is suddenly cut off? We can't wait to find out early next week.

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Kurt

Junior Member
The news in Germany are quite silent on the Crimea issue. "Winter is coming" in a way. There are ongoing preparations for a trade war with Russia. Annexation of Crimea by Russia is the trigger event for unleashing these measures in a series of escalations. Germany has most to lose among all NATO and EU states because it has the strongest economic connections with Russia. Keeping the cacaphony at low noise levels helps organizing an ordered economic retreat from Russia.
The self assessment of NATO and EU military forces in Europe is, they can defeat the Russians midterm with overwhelmig forces, but could face some short term Russian gains on the frontier. Germany, like other EU states, is reluctant to use military force, while Russia seems most willing to use military force. Using military force against a capable opposition would be no less costly than a trade war, but can make short term gains that can afterwards be defended against whatever enemy onslaught (military or economic).
The anticipated trade war between EU+US against Russia mostly boils down to a German-Russian trade war as Germany does half the economic exchange. Both Schröder (socialists) and Kohl (conservatives), the two former German chancelors, expressed their dissatisfaction with the confrontational EU course in Ukraine. Schröder made it to news headlines because of North Stream, while none seems to listen to Kohl. The opinion of legendary former chancelor Helmut Schmidt neither made it to headlines. German chancelor Merkel is between a rock and a hard place and does her utmost by keeping negotiations open, while limiting sanctions to achieve most effect on the Russian gouvernment powerstructure and least harm on German economic interests. Germany is most reluctant about entering a trade war with Russia, but they would hit Russia very hard if they did. Russia is mostly an exporter of mining and agricultural products. Without the economic ties to Germany, they are forced to accept whatever the only alternative, China, offers them.
The whole Crimea stunt would strengthen Russian naval presence in the Black Sea and Mediterranean in return for a strengthened bond between Russia and their new Chinese manufacturers, establishing power blocks in economic conflict that would dominate the early 21th century. How closely is China willing to be aligned with the Russian troubleshooter? Can China help Russia to circumvent the sanctions?

A possibility not yet discussed, allow the Russian to occupy Crimea, impose weak sanctions and build up the Ukrainian forces and economy over several years in order to launch a reconquest of Russian occupied Crimea. This is the proxy war scenario between EU and Russia. The rather silent media coverage on this ongoing issue convinces me that it's a likely scenario, similar to Operations Flash and Storm in Croatia/Krajina.
 
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bajingan

Senior Member
Interesting times. Today is referendum day in the Crimea and tomorrow is sanctions day for the US. I'm not sure what kind of sanctions the Americans are thinking about but according to this Zerohedge article the Russians has already removed most of its money out of the West.



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The US and EU who threaten to impose sanctions on Russian elites, does not understand how Mr Putin thinks, the way they should considering the experience they had during Cold war.

Sanctions means little to Mr Putin, he has already factored them into his plans. Mr Putin despise billionaires, oligarchs and corrupt officials that kept their money abroad, there is even a video on youtube when Mr putin forced a billionaire to re open his factory after laying off thousands of its workers.

Mr Putin could easily use western sanctions as a warning to his Russian enemies and corrupt officials, if they don't follow the laws prohibiting transfer of ill gotten gains to European banks, western sanctions will do the job.
 

delft

Brigadier
The probability is that a majority of those with the right to vote today in the Crimea will vote for transfer to Russia and that Russia will then do nothing formally until the end of this year. It will be up to the EU to subsidize the Kiev regime and both will in the end be thoroughly discredited.
Will significant sanctions be put in place while Russia does nothing? What will happen wrt the talks between Iran and 5+1, wrt Syria? Can Turkey afford to play along with sanctions?
In the meantime China is said to increase the bandwidth of RMB to US$ from 1% to 2% and is expected to use RMB for a third of its foreign trade next year ( from my Dutch financial newspaper today ). The mere threat of sanctions will support this development.
 
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