09V/09VI (095/096) Nuclear Submarine Thread

SinoSoldier

Colonel
We certainly don't know much about whether the lead 09V would be built at the new facility or the old one.

I would be surprised if construction of the entire 09V was done at the new facility given how recently the whole thing was completed, but I don't think it's out of the question for the final stages of construction to have been done at the new facility (i.e.: the assembly hall, which seemed to have finished construction in mid 2017 earlier than the rest of the facility).

Whether it's "against the grain" or not is debatable. The PLAN has been doing quite a lot over the last few years that has been "against the grain".

I think the best way for us to look at whether the lead 09V may be getting built or partially built in the new facility is whether the timelines could match up.


By the way I think your characterization of the new facility may not be accurate -- when you say "disassembling and reassembling the scaffolding and structures to move production to a new facility" you make it sound like they're taking pieces of equipment from the old facility and moving them to the new facility.
Given the new facility is greenfield and much larger, I expect them to have built entirely new production lines and fabrication facilities in the new facility.

That is to say, I don't think the new facility is merely the "old production line" that has been moved to a new location and in some new buildings, but rather that the new facility is an entirely new production line in general.





es of course we knew 09III mods existed by satellite photos around 2013.
But we most certainly did not know there were so many different variants before last year:
pgjdgx0.jpg


Note how I wrote "all the different mods of 09III" -- i.e.: multiple and more than one. We certainly did not have proof that there were as many as five possible 09III configurations in 2013.




I'm aware of when 09IV emerged relative to 09III, and I think most people would've reasonably estimated that 09VI would emerge a few years after 09V as well.

But it's something else to also have fzgfzy directly give us a timeframe directly -- even if it would've been within most people's estimated timespan.

I agree with most of what you've written. If FZGFZY's 09V claim is more or less true, then it points to the old shipyard theory.

====

Anyways, does anybody know what FZGFZY is saying in his post?
1.jpg
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I agree with most of what you've written. If FZGFZY's 09V claim is more or less true, then it points to the old shipyard theory.

====

Anyways, does anybody know what FZGFZY is saying in his post?
View attachment 52027

I think the guy he is responding to is saying he expects the first 09IIIB to emerge next year, and that work on 09V only began in late 2017 (5th December) -- so basically challenging what fzgfzy is writing.

I think fzgfzy is essentially saying the equivalent of a "we'll see" with the equivalent of winky face emojis.
 

Blitzo

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Rather than interpreting jargon from someone who has no connection with the project, read articles from the desiner and builder might probably be a better way.

I think taking both categories into account can produce better projections. Rarely do the designers and builders give us anything as clear as what "interpreting jargon" can suggest, but they are useful to use them to correlate with each other.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Excellent article by Lyle Goldstein
In other words, there is a strong suggestion here that China will begin a reorientation of its submarine force toward prioritizing nuclear-submarine deployments to meet new far-seas mission requirements. Indeed, the penultimate sentence of the QSA analysis asserts emphatically that nuclear submarines will form “the ‘assassin’s mace’ force of our navy’s expansion into the deep oceans for defense combat.”

Why the U.S. Navy Should Fear China's Submarine Fleet

It might get something critical: bases overseas.
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by
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in


For American strategists, there certainly are troubling implications.

Between major decisions on a new deployment to Afghanistan and a wholly new Persian Gulf crisis, not to mention the boiling crises in Syria and North Korea, Washington strategists can be forgiven for putting China’s naval buildup on the back burner. As Beijing fills the “near seas”—and now the “far seas”—with new frigates, destroyers and aircraft carriers, the
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guiding its future submarine force
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that this column has
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. Moreover, the tendency of Washington analysts has been, rather predictably, to exaggerate the potential threat posed by China’s naval buildup; this columnist
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against that tendency.

Objective assessments of China’s rapid naval modernization must be based on the best possible information regarding the Chinese Navy’s objectives and future plans. An
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published as the lead article in a prestigious naval research journal and written by research personnel at the Qingdao Submarine Academy [海军潜艇学院] provides such a baseline document to evaluate Beijing’s developing undersea ambitions. Some of the revelations detailed below are sure to exhilarate Washington’s many hawks, such as the declared imperatives for Chinese submarines as “offensive forces [进攻性兵种]” to operate on “exterior lines [外线兵种]” to “actively defend the ‘Belt and Road’ [积极维护 ‘一带一路’],” to mix it up with adversary ASW forces to gain intelligence [侦察] about enemy doctrine and capabilities, not to mention hints regarding the future overseas supply [海外保障] of Chinese submarines and expected emphasis on developing nuclear submarine capabilities as an “assassin’s mace” [杀手锏] for far-seas operations.

0

Yet before broaching these points, one should stop and sincerely congratulate the Chinese Navy for so openly discussing such issues. The paper under discussion here represents a significant stride forward for Chinese military transparency, and most Western naval strategists would admit that such a document, while quite unusual in the Chinese context, would not be out of place in U.S. Navy doctrinal statements. In other words, China is hardly the only country to have grandiose undersea ambitions—even if they are still fairly new to the game.


With a nod to the history of the PLA Navy and its unique experience with submarines, the Qingdao Submarine Academy (hereafter QSA) authors assert that a new era requires new thinking, and so they wish to promote transformative concepts and innovation. They suggest that two major ideas from the past need to be shelved and replaced. One idea that dates from the PLA Navy’s strategy of “coastal defense [近海防御]” is the notion that submarines are primarily defensive platforms that have the primary mission of “watching the house and guarding the courtyard [看家护院].” Another dated strategic idea that the QSA authors wish to dispense with is the strategic concept that Chinese submarines should only operate “near to the island chain [岛连附近活动].” Instead, this piece advocates strongly for an expansive, even global submarine strategy, as implied by the research paper’s title: “Several Thoughts on Advancing the Submarine Force to the Far Seas [推进潜艇兵力走向远洋的几点思考].”

As for developing a rationale for this expanding role, the article reliably cites the pronouncement of the Eighteenth Party Congress that China should become a maritime power [海洋强国]. Also predictably, it includes discussion of China’s booming maritime trade and the new requirements to protect this trade. “As national maritime interests are expanding continuously, the ocean’s significance for the survival of the Chinese nation is more and more important,” the QSA authors explain. Without mentioning the “Malacca Dilemma” explicitly, the vulnerability of China’s lengthy maritime “strategic energy corridor [能源战略通道]” is outlined. They assert, moreover, that China faces a definite external threat and must therefore expand it maritime strategic space, observing: “At bases in both Northeast Asia and in Southeast Asia, as well as the base on Guam, the US has deployed advanced air and sea forces in order to control our country’s maritime passages out into the Pacific. By constructing strategic arcs to contain our country, our space for maritime activities has been strictly confined.”


It is, moreover, asserted that the United States and Japan have developed an elaborate antisubmarine system that aims to a “permanent blockade [永远地封锁]” of Chinese submarines within the first island chain. At this point, the authors state emphatically: “[China’s] submarine forces must not only go the Asia-Pacific, [but] they must also go to the Indian Ocean, and then they must go to the Atlantic and to the Arctic Oceans. In this way, the current operational problems of submarine operations can be alleviated and it will also provide a vast maritime strategic space for our country’s rise […可有效缓解我国当面海区潜艇兵力活动困难, 也能为我大国崛起提供广阔的海洋战略空间].” Elsewhere, I have pointed out the likelihood that Chinese periscopes will soon be found in the Atlantic, and here is rather concrete evidence of such intentions directly from the Chinese submarine force itself.

If that’s not a big enough bombshell (or depth charge), this document contains another hint that China might pursue foreign basing for its submarine force. This column
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to other bits of Chinese evidence suggesting this possibility. Here, the QSA researchers argue: “Currently, our submarine base ports are all located along our ocean borderline, which is rather far from the distant seas submarine operational sea areas. Moreover, the speed of the submarine force is relatively slow, especially conventional submarines, so that the submarines’ actual operating time is too short. This significantly diminishes the actual impact of the submarine force going to the distant seas.” Interestingly, a similar argument is often made regarding U.S. submarine-force basing patterns with respect to transit times and time on station.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
(cont)
Then, the Chinese analysts make the rather startling assertion that “as the submarine force ‘goes out,’ it is necessary to insist on overseas support, and also the principle of economizing the force. The Navy command should secure equipment and logistics for the submarine force abroad for the purpose of increasing the time of the submarine force in the distant seas [潜艇兵力 ‘走出去’ 必须坚持海外保障, 节约兵力的原则, 海军指挥机关应能实现在海外对潜的装备和后勤保障, 才能有效地提高潜艇兵力在远海大洋的存在时间].” On the one hand, this language permits a simple continuation of current practices, wherein the Chinese submarine force makes ever more frequent port visits abroad. However, the notion of “overseas support” [海外保障] and the plausible rationale of simply trying to save on fuel, wear and tear, and so on does seem to open the door to the semipermanent basing of Chinese submarines in distant countries.

Yet another fascinating and innovative part of this exposition of future Chinese submarine doctrine is the twin emphasis on realistic training, as well as the more sensitive guidance regarding intelligence gathering and interactions with adversary forces. The authors advise that Chinese submarines operating in the distant seas must “drill for real combat [实战训练],” undertaking training for submarine-versus-submarine battle, as well as clashes of submarines against surface ships and, not surprisingly, submarines against aircraft carrier battle groups too. Somewhat less obvious, however, is the recommendation to practice submarines laying mines [潜艇布雷], submarine defense against enemy ASW aircraft [潜艇对敌反潜飞机防御], submarine delivery of special forces [潜艇输送特种兵] and submarine intelligence gathering [潜艇侦察]. They must be prepared, according to the analysis, to penetrate enemy harbors and operate near straits. In one of the most interesting passages, the authors underline the importance of gathering “temperature and climactic data, so that our environmental databases and our tactical sonar databases have a main foundation for wartime target discernment and thus provide the information guarantee for future combat.” In another surprising candid passage, they explain: “In the course of undertaking far seas operations, there well may be close interactions that are intentional and involve potential adversaries, for example track and trail operations, or evading tracking operations, etc. Such contacts could also involve familiarization with adversary weapons systems, basic tactics, and anti-submarine patterns [可有意识地与作战对手进行接触, 跟踪与摆脱等, 熟悉其武器性能, 基本战法, 反潜样式].” These operations “may help to accumulate experience with [near] combat [conditions], creating a basis for future defensive combat in the far seas.”

A final illuminating point from this Chinese naval analysis concerns the future mix of conventional and nuclear submarines and their respective roles in far-seas operations. The authors note that the current Chinese submarine force looks like neither the American model (all nuclear boats), nor even the Russian model (nuclear and conventional with an emphasis on the former). The Chinese submarine force has, like Russia, both types of submarines, of course, but the main force is comprised of increasingly quiet and stealthy diesel-electric (conventional) submarines [常为主]. The article states clearly that both types of submarines have certain advantages that Chinese naval strategists must study and implement into its undersea strategy. However, there is a revealing recommendation: that China must avoid having nuclear submarines that constitute a “large effort put to small use [大材小用]” and conventional submarines that are “kept constantly on the run [疲于奔命].”

In other words, there is a strong suggestion here that China will begin a reorientation of its submarine force toward prioritizing nuclear-submarine deployments to meet new far-seas mission requirements. Indeed, the penultimate sentence of the QSA analysis asserts emphatically that nuclear submarines will form “the ‘assassin’s mace’ force of our navy’s expansion into the deep oceans for defense combat.”

This Chinese naval analysis, undertaken by the Qingdao Submarine Academy, offers firm evidence of China’s evolving and increasingly global undersea ambitions. For American strategists, there certainly are troubling implications—for example, the likelihood that a military conflict that ignited in the Western Pacific could spread rapidly into the Atlantic sea area, a
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in more detail recently using an additional, credible Chinese evidentiary source. More obvious still are the dangers inherent in the increased intensity of cat-and-mouse games, which are set to become ever more common across the world’s oceans. Such dangerous interactions could cause tragic accidents, and also fuel crises and rivalry in unpredictable and costly directions.

There is substantial evidence in this piece that the PLA Navy has an acute sense of threat perception. The authors matter-of-factly state: “We are facing the United States’ nuclear blackmail, nuclear menace, and conventional threats [面临着美国的核讹诈、核威胁及常规威胁].” To state the obvious, exaggerating the threat or challenge posed by China’s submarine force could well intensify rivalry, and thus make the problem even worse. It is worth emphasizing that all points of doctrine advocated in this piece are ones routinely practiced by Western navies, including obviously the U.S. Navy. China is hardly alone in coming to the conclusion that formidable and wide-ranging undersea power can be an effective tool to “influence the judgements, decisions, and actions of target state authorities [影响目标国家当局的判断, 决策和行动].”


Deterrence, defense of widespread and legitimate economic interests, as well as cooperative maritime security endeavors, are all also major themes of this important doctrinal statement for the future Chinese submarine force. Thus, American strategists should take this revelation regarding Chinese undersea ambitions in stride, maintaining an open mind with respect to a greater Chinese naval presence on and indeed under the world’s oceans, even as the United States itself must energetically seeks to maintain robust undersea warfare capabilities into the future.

Lyle J. Goldstein is an associate professor in the China Maritime Studies Institute (CMSI) at the U.S. Naval War College in Newport, Rhode Island. The opinions expressed in this analysis are his own and do not represent the official assessments of the U.S. Navy or any other agency of the U.S. government.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
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If you looked into it, you would find answers to some of your questions including when did the production of the lead 09V begin, whether the new halls are active and whether 09V is being constructed at the old facility.

Unfortunately I don't have access or awareness of those original sources, but please do feel free to provide them to the community at large, or even better to give us a statement as to what you believe the answers for those questions are.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
@Hendrik_2000

I talked about China’s focus on advanced SSK before, and that at some point of time they would decide to port over to SSN to help forces operate outside Asia for proactive defense.

It looks like the white paper says that this shift has happened. Will be exciting to see what kind of N-SSN would be designed.
 

Blitzo

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Both No.719 Research Institute and BSGC have official accounts on Chinese social media (WeChat id: "CSIC-719" and "bochuanjituan") and I believe most of the institutes and manufacturers you are interested in have their accounts.

That is appreciated, but I'm going to assume that they do not exactly directly make statements about whether they're starting production on a new nuclear submarine in plain terms either. They have their own jargon, and I think taking information from both categories are useful if not only for the reason that

But seeing as you seem to have some opinions about this topic, please do tell us what you think about whether you believe 09V has begun production at the new or old facility and whether the new halls are active or not.
 

Lethe

Captain
Any thoughts on the likely production run for 09VI?

USA is going for 12 SSBNs, Russia about the same. Given the high threat levels to China's SSBNs, I think a similar number will be required. And given developments in ABM technologies I think that significant numbers of missiles will be required, even if China deploys fewer warheads (and more decoys/penetration aids) on those missiles.

With 6 09IV/As in service, a further 6 09VI's would bring China to a dozen SSBNs and should be achievable by 2030. However, given the range limitations on JL-2 and operational limitations those impose on the 09IV boats, and also the presumed technological limitations of 09IV, I would expect the 09IVs to be replaced in the 2030s, at the least in SSBN role -- a conversion to intelligence-gathering or SSGN role would be possible.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
What I believe is that in the next two, they will try to make improvements over the previous two, just as the previous two has their improvements over the preceding pair. But I also think that at some point, they need to stop making SSBNs from the 093 base hull and move on to the next generation 095 or use a hull purposely built as an SSBN and not from a stretched attack submarine. The sooner they move on to the next generation, the better. You need to create a submarine that is fuller and fat, in beam and draught, so it can store the missile silos with the minimum bump needed. Or eliminate the hump completely so you have a smooth streamlined shape that removes turbulent backflow from the hump and its rows of drain holes.
 
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