09III/09IV (093/094) Nuclear Submarine Thread

tphuang

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i dont think Hawaii, SD etc are relevant, if those targets are hit then its a much bigger problem than just a few ships or fleets.

also you seem to be suggesting here that the Chinese intend to use SLBM as means ASuW? wouldnt that risk miscalculation that they might be nuclear armed?
they are definitely going to want to target those places. That's why 095 could be quite the headache for USN if paired with SLBM. It's always easier to take ships out of action by hitting them while they are in the port and also destroying the facilities that support them.

I did want to ask Patch about non nuclear SLBM too. That seems to reach a grey area.
 

AndrewS

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093B mass production has started and the work for first 095 has started. Might be able to launch 6 to 8 SSNs a year. I think if they actually put 20 in the facilities, then the max launching speed is 10 a year. I think it's there is the larger limiting factor of training and finding crew members and supporting staff to operate and sustain that many nuclear subs. Which is probably why 093B production started now. They needed an interim class to build up numbers before 095s are mass produced.
8 093B + 8 earlier 093s is a decent size force for training and sustainment. No reason they can't have all 8 launched by 2025.

Agreed, but I do think 10 SSN equivalents per year would be excessive.

If you're going to ramp up the labour force and supply chain to 10 per year, you want to keep this going for 10 years at least because it is so specialised. That means you end up with 100 after just 10 years. Then you face a steep ramp down to something more sustainable, which I judge as around 4-6 per year.

If you were to ramp to 8 instead of 10 per year, it just extends the timeframe to get to the required numbers.
For example, to reach 50, it would take 6 years instead of 5 years. For 100, it would be 12.5 years instead of 10 years

It also makes recruitment and training demands easier.
 

AndrewS

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Well, that's easier said than done. Strictly speaking, everyone wants to avoid unfavorable engagements, but actually doing so is very difficult when facing a capable adversary. USW (and to a lesser extent, ASW) is one domain in which we've retained most of our advantages over the PLAN, and that will continue being true for - at least - most of this decade.

As far a chokepoints go, it's a double edged sword. In the same way that 1IC chokepoints don't only affect the PLA, expeditionary chokepoints don't only affect the US. Anything worth sinking is worth protecting, and until 09V comes online, 09IIIBs are still extremely vulnerable to USN USW/ASW outside of the 2IC.

Just speaking from my own (comparatively limited) experience specifically dealing with USW CONEMPs, their largest contribution is achieved by operating in the blue waters between the 1IC and 2IC. This is especially true if the PLAN pursues SL(ASh)BMs roughly similar to our own I-CPS procurement (which we know is, at a minimum, being seriously explored). Relevant to that, we are expecting future PLAN SSNs to host a new, relatively large VLS/CLS system to employ these new munitions, which aligns with prior talk from the grapevine about a 1.2 meter diameter, 1500nm-class range AShBM being developed by the PLAN.

This is a very impactful capability uplift, and it's something we're seriously concerned about over here. With such a munition, PLAN SSNs within the 1IC become viable ASuW shooters for surface targets out to Guam. When patrolling between the 1IC and 2nd IC, with effective C3, they create the threat of unknown-axis AShBM salvos from well outside a USN formation's organic ASW coverage. As long as the 09IIIBs operate within range of land-based or surface-based ASW support, USN SSNs pose a significantly reduced threat to the 09IIIBs, with the caveat that some degree of attrition would be a near-certainty.

Beyond ASuW, if the munition is capable of prosecuting ashore targets, things open up even further.

View attachment 104469

This is a quick and dirty visual of what 1500nm standoffs from Misawa, Guam, and Darwin look like. With some caveats, PLAN SSNs with SLBMs alter these locations' threat profile from primarily single-axis, medium to long response window threats (with H-6K/KD-20 salvos being particularly "visible") to include unknown-axis, short response window SLBM salvos. This also has outsized effects even beyond the actual SSN. It's difficult to overstate how much impact the threat geometry has on an IAMDS, so introducing the need to detect, track, cue, launch, prosecute, and assess incoming munitions (especially BMs) from multiple axes simultaneously (with potentially minimal reaction time) will impose its own "virtual attrition" on an IAMDS compared to single-axis threats.

Not great.

To make things worse, as more capable SSNs begin to enter service (and as crew proficiency solidifies), it will become feasible to operate beyond the 2IC (and therefore beyond PLAN/AF support). Once this happens, we start to have serious issues.

View attachment 104471

This is a similar low-effort visual as the last, but for Pearl, SD, Bremerton, and Eielson.

At the moment, sans AEGIS BMD equipped CRUDES, there is practically nothing in the way of an AMDS integral to these installations. I'm sure it goes without saying that PLA fires being able to reach out and touch us on our home turf is uh... sub-optimal.

While it would be vastly more challenging - if possible at all - to conduct dynamic ASuW with these munitions at this kind of distance (due to C3 and targeting limitations), the traditional SSN threat remains. This threat requires us to pull away forces that could be contributing to 7FLT operations, and to instead task them with ASW operations under 3FLT.

Beyond ASuW (again), the STW element also poses tremendous implications. Pearl, SD, and Bremerton are very juicy targets, and the ability to successfully destroy or disable CVNs (and ofc the myriad of CRUDES not underway) in port is the kind of game-changer that Xi Jinping probably asked Santa for Christmas. As it stands, there's just not much we can really do about a concerted attack like this, assuming we don't have extensive prior knowledge.

In order to rectify this threat before it truly matures, we will need to stand up an extensive IAMDS capable of defending our critical installations from multiple axes simultaneously, and with minimal reaction time. That's no small task. Alternatively, we could maintain AEGIS BMD equipped CRUDES patrols in the vicinity of these targets, but that would come at the cost of more (badly needed) major surface combatants not available for operations in 7FLT.

Altogether, unless we're content to just watch as we experience Tora Tora Tora with Chinese Characteristics, these new threat vectors will slowly force us to make difficult, undesired decisions/tradeoffs in order to address them.

(smh, I wish the PLA just stayed on defense. it's sooo much more fun when you can hit the other guy but he can't hit you)

That all makes sense, but I do have a few comments:

1. On a 1.2 meter diameter, 1500nm-class range AShBM, am I correct in thinking this sounds like a DF-16 with a smaller warhead to get the additional range required?

2. Guam is only slightly more than 1500nm from mainland China. So is there any point in launching AShBMs from expensive (and comparatively vulnerable) submarines within the 1IC? Sure, there could be multiple attack axes, but if a carrier group has 4 escorting BMD destroyers for different vectors, would that actually make much difference?

And if it is still useful, then wouldn't a 1500nm-class range AShBM be excessive big for this role? You could fit more DF-11 type missiles in the same space, they would cost less and still have a 600km range available.

3. So I see a 1500nm SLBM as being more useful for scenarios beyond the 1IC

4. For scenarios in the Eastern Pacific and Hawaii, the same logic would apply. You know where the targets are going to be and they will be stationary when at port. And wouldn't a range of 600km be sufficient for a submarine to launch SLBMs and still evade counter-attack?
 

tphuang

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That all makes sense, but I do have a few comments:

1. On a 1.2 meter diameter, 1500nm-class range AShBM, am I correct in thinking this sounds like a DF-16 with a smaller warhead to get the additional range required?

2. Guam is only slightly more than 1500nm from mainland China. So is there any point in launching AShBMs from expensive (and comparatively vulnerable) submarines within the 1IC? Sure, there could be multiple attack axes, but if a carrier group has 4 escorting BMD destroyers for different vectors, would that actually make much difference?

And if it is still useful, then wouldn't a 1500nm-class range AShBM be excessive big for this role? You could fit more DF-11 type missiles in the same space, they would cost less and still have a 600km range available.

3. So I see a 1500nm SLBM as being more useful for scenarios beyond the 1IC

4. For scenarios in the Eastern Pacific and Hawaii, the same logic would apply. You know where the targets are going to be and they will be stationary when at port. And wouldn't a range of 600km be sufficient for a submarine to launch SLBMs and still evade counter-attack?

why would you want a SRBM to be launched in those VLS? Any attacks within 2IC can be done with DF-17/26s along with H-6K.

advanced nuclear submarine is to allow China to threaten CONUS as a way to deter US military from getting involved.

093B isn't exactly a quiet sub. Let's assume that Chinese military can provide enough air cover where USN subs cannot trail them from the port. In which case, it can get into open Ocean beyond 1st Island chain. Once you get there, how does it go about not getting caught? Well, there is limited areas where it can go and be safe. Even aside from knowing where USN subs are, it has to be concerned about location of any Pacific SOSUS. And even more importantly, it needs to raise to close to surface in order to communicate with satellites so that it can get informed on where it needs to go. Given the abundance of ISR satellites, there are limitations on where it can do this. The further away it can operate, the more rooms and places where it has to be safe. US military searching 600km for a sub is quite different than searching 3000 km for a sub. That's 25 times the surface area to look through.
 

AndrewS

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why would you want a SRBM to be launched in those VLS? Any attacks within 2IC can be done with DF-17/26s along with H-6K.

advanced nuclear submarine is to allow China to threaten CONUS as a way to deter US military from getting involved.

093B isn't exactly a quiet sub. Let's assume that Chinese military can provide enough air cover where USN subs cannot trail them from the port. In which case, it can get into open Ocean beyond 1st Island chain. Once you get there, how does it go about not getting caught? Well, there is limited areas where it can go and be safe. Even aside from knowing where USN subs are, it has to be concerned about location of any Pacific SOSUS. And even more importantly, it needs to raise to close to surface in order to communicate with satellites so that it can get informed on where it needs to go. Given the abundance of ISR satellites, there are limitations on where it can do this. The further away it can operate, the more rooms and places where it has to be safe. US military searching 600km for a sub is quite different than searching 3000 km for a sub. That's 25 times the surface area to look through.

I agree. That's why I brought up the question
 

AndrewS

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There are absolutely vignettes where it's a viable CONEMP; and plenty where just having the option is desirable. SSNs operating in friendly-controlled waters are significantly lower-profile than even land-based PLARF forces, which reduces our reaction window once they start kicking things off. Additionally, there are a lot of targets for the PLA to prosecute in the case of a general Western Pacific conflagration, so when it comes to prompt, precision fires, the more the merrier.

It's desirable yes. But the previously mooted Type-093 SSN cost is like $1 Billion.
In comparison, a TEL would cost like $5 Mn and a DF-17 missile would cost like $2 Million.

So for the cost of a single SSN with a few AShBMs, you could buy 111 TELs, each with 2 DF-17s.
If the targets are within the 2500km range of a DF-17, that heavily favours land-based DF-17s over a submarine launched AShBM

Yes, that cost per target matters when there are a lot of targets.

And thinking about it, wouldn't a submarine-launched AShBM warhead have comparatively little manoeuvrability compared to a DF-17 HGV which can evade SAMs in the upper atmosphere?
 
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Mohsin77

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So for the cost of a single SSN with a few AShBMs, you could buy 111 TELs, each with 2 DF-17s.

For the cost of 1 apple you might buy 2 oranges.

But they offer different advantages that are complementary.

Patch was saying that the lower profile of SSNs reduces the reaction time.

So ideally, you want a good mix of both in your 1st strike wave.
 

FrogLover88

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This is a gargantuan oversimplification. Not all procurement matters are a simple function of how much a system costs.

An SSN provides a myriad of completely unmatched capabilities and intrinsic benefits that a TEL-based system can never provide for any dollar amount. These are a large part of what makes SSNs more cost effective than one might initially think, and worth every last cent that they do ultimately cost. The amount of impact a single SSN can have on the course of a conflict - especially in a Pacific naval war - is orders of magnitude greater than what an equivalent salvo of TEL-based munitions could achieve.

Wars are eye-wateringly expensive to be in for any length of time, so spending $10 Billion on platforms that end the conflict in 10 days is colossally preferable to spending even a tenth of that amount on a roughly related platform without the key capabilities the other provided, and then getting dragged into an extended, economy-melting, attritional air/naval war.

If the two CONEMPs scaled capability uplift with investment in remotely the same way, it might be less misguided, but that's not the case at all. To outfit a DF-17 Brigade, large amounts of trained personnel, buildings, support infrastructure, vehicles, POL, electricity, land, and much much more is required. This is a sizable military formation with very large overhead and operational costs involved. It requires trained servicemen to fill its ranks. It requires all of the networking and connectivity overhead that standing up a new unit demand. It requires officers and senior enlisted leaders, it eats a chunk of the PLA's total sustainment capacity, and so on and so forth.

What you get for the price, logistics footprint, and opportunity cost of procuring an SSN - which has the ability to prosecute war-winning targets in a way only possible due to the lack of precursor warning signs, the prompt engagement tempo, the unanticipated salvo geometry, and... yknow... the rest of a Nuclear Attack Submarine's capability set - is (once the real world is factored in) far more desirable than an equal investment into DF-17 procurement.

I'm quite worn out currently, so I do apologize if I come across as demeaning, but I think you may have a shallower grasp than you're aware of on the complexities and nuance of effects based military procurement and force structure growth.
I thought it was a good question, and one that I can definitely image some boomer PLARF general would be asking somewhere.
 
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