It will literally never be settled. So why is it weird to make guesses for 095? We will be making guesses for every last sub in the PLAN inventory till the end of our days. You can refrain if you want, though.
09III/09IV (093/094) Nuclear Submarine Thread
- Thread starter SinoSoldier
- Start date
Well, one's guesses for how quiet or not quiet 09V will be will dependent on how quiet they think 09III and 09IIIB (as examples of the current/existing class) already are, i.e. the "baseline".
Exactly. But they are all still guesses, and will remain guesses. So according to you we shouldn't be guessing because it's weird to guess without additional information that will not be forthcoming.
I'm not saying we shouldn't be guessing, but making guesses about 09V without also stating one's position on what they think 09III/IIIB is at, I think is a bit weird, yeah.
Nope, that's moving the goalposts right there. You said it was weird to guess 095 without knowing 093/091, not that it was weird to guess 095 without stating one's guess for 093/091. These are most definitely NOT the same statements.
Not knowing what 09III/09IIIB's acoustic stealth level is obviously something we'll just have to live with. It still makes guessing about 09V weird, because that lack of knowledge means it will likely be difficult/impossible for people to agree on what the "baseline" should be before starting to talk guess about 09V.
That's why it would be good for people to also state where they think 09III/IIIB are at if they're guessing about 09V's relative acoustic stealth, because that way at least that way if there are any disagreements about the the baseline, it can be aired openly and make the discussion clearer/less awkward.
Yes, it would be good for people to state their guesses for 091/093 (which I already did). Nevertheless, what's "weird" for you is not necessarily weird for anybody else, and just because it's weird for you to state guesses for 095 without knowing 091/093 levels doesn't mean we will ever know these pieces of information, and therefore this shouldn't keep us from guessing. Again, you shifted your statements from knowing to stating, and this was my point. Knowing will never happen, and stating will happen regardless, because this is SDF.
Blackstone
Brigadier
And yet the Pentagon's "voodoo science" is based on information from intelligence services. Numbers we see on SDF are generally from rumor mills of dubious origin and believability. Therefore, I'll take the Pentagon's estimates, thank you very much.
I didn't shift my statements -- both of the statements were part of the same overarching idea, which I didn't bother to expand in full detail because it was just a passing remark on my part, but seeing as you've persisted...
I consider the lack of knowledge and settlement about what 09III/IIIB's acoustic stealth level is, to hinder discussions about 09V's level of acoustic stealth because guesses of 09V's level of acoustic stealth are usually projected based off what a person believes 09III/IIIB's level of acoustic stealth may be, which may lead to disagreement about where 09V's level of acoustic stealth may be, without seeing the underlying issue which is really disagreement about what the level of technology/advancement/acoustic stealth of the existing generation (09III/09IIIB) is at. Optimally it would be best if we had information about what 09III/IIIB's level of acoustic stealth may be, such a thing is of course unrealistic, so one way to clarify positions is to also state where they believe 09III/09IIIB's level of acoustic stealth may be.
My position, such as it is, is consistent, but I hope you can appreciate why I didn't bother writing all that in what was meant to be a short passing remark.
As for guessing -- again, I haven't said people shouldn't guess, just that it would be a good idea to include additional information behind their positions, like where they believe 09III/IIIB are at, that sort of thing, to make things less weird, which in this case for the sake of discussion I mean to allow the identification of where the underlying disagreements are.
You made very similar statements twice without further clarifying:
"anyway, I find this discussion about what 09V may be like to be a bit confusing when we don't even really know how quiet 09III and 09IIIB really compares to other SSNs and how we probably never will."
"I do think it's a bit weird making guesses for 09V when the issue of 09III/09IIIB's relative acoustic stealth has yet to really be settled though."
So it's not hard to see why it looks exactly like you shifted from saying "it's weird to make guesses about 095 levels without knowing 091/093 levels" to "it's weird to make guesses about 095 levels without stating your personal opinion on 091/093 levels" (once I pointed out that knowing these levels will probably never happen), which is what you started saying later on. Neither of which preclude people making guesses, but rather the source of your personal feelings of weirdness, and of course the nature of the implicit criticism, is what is different. I guess you were clarifying that when you said "knowing 091/093 levels" you actually meant "stating one's personal opinion about 091/093 levels". Not really the same thing or even part of the same overarching idea, but ok.