071 LPD thread

[Blitzo]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

i can only see half of your pictures and still some cutaways, why are we looking at inaccurate cutaways when real pictures are there, we already know they are wrong, please re-post

Which pictures can you not see?
And in what way are the cutaways disproved by the real pictures? You need to be more specific, I have no idea which cutaway you're talking about (san antonio or 071?) nor am I sure what area they are wrong in (well deck length? helicopter hangar size? what?)

and im guessing you circled these pics by hand? they are meant to be 30m apart, they dont look it, look at the size of the small boats they look 10m easily, we can fit 12 in there??

"they don't look it"??

J-20 doesn't look ~20 meters long either, yet quantitative comparisons have proved it so.

Do not let photography distort what is real, eyeballing won't give you objective dimensions.


Also, you're missing the point here. How someone circled the traffic lights is irrelevant

I'll walk you through the process, step by step

Below, you see the LCAC backed up against the well deck door. You see circled "1" on the upper handrail, whose distance from the end of the well deck is the same as the LCAC's length.

From the same set of pictures, we see a shot down the well deck towards the bow. You can see the boats jetty positions haven't moved from the first picture. But you see cricled, three further traffic lights.
We've already determined the LCAC's length and the distance between the end of the well deck and the last traffic light are equal.

Assuming that distance is also the distance between the other three traffic lights, well then you get four traffic lights each with a length behind them for an LCAC:
* = traffic light

l------l <---- this is an lcac. Not proportional of course.
l------l
l------l



BOW
* 1st traffic light
l------l 1st lcac
l------l
l------l
* 2nd traffic light
l------l 2nd lcac
l------l
l------l
* 3rd traffic light
l------l 3rd lcac
l------l
l------l
* 4th traffic light
l------l 4th lcac
l------l
l------l
AFT/well deck door


---------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the helicopter debacle, again, I use this cutaway drawing as my backup, which shows two Z-8s on the left side of the hangar one behind the other.

I can understand if that doesn't convince you, so again keep in mind that 998 took 2 Z-8s and a Z-9 onboard to its aden trip.
We know the inside hangar of the 071 is rectangular, but we don't know its dimensions.
So either they fit two Z-8s forward and the Z-9 behind one of the Z-8s inside the hangar, or they fit two Z-8s forward and behind on one side of the hangar, and the Z-9 forward on the other side of the hangar.

Keep in mind Z-8s tail does fold, and Z-9 doesn't. So both would end up with a very similar folded length for when they go into the hangar, therefore in conjunction with the cutaway drawing, it is extremely likely 071 can hold 4 Z-8s.



I can't dumb this down any more, apart from actually drawing out interactive diagrams or something.

 

[asif iqbal]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

ok i can see them

but really, lets be sensible, do you really think the last traffic light is 30m away from the end of the well deck? i mean just look at the handle rails at the top, the well deck ends pretty much after the last traffic light, so you will get max. 3 LCAC which is what i said 2-3 max. , certainly not 4

and in the cutaway im talking about is of Type 071, just look at the well deck in it, does it look like it can fit 4 LCAC? no i doubt it, then in the cutaway i posted it is shown it can carry 4, so which is right? so thats why lets just stick to real photos, and the hanger again is shown to extend way into the ship, in the pictures it doesnt even seem as close, that hanger is probably 40m max. 45m

 

[Blitzo]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

ok i can see them

but really, lets be sensible, do you really think the last traffic light is 30m away from the end of the well deck? i mean just look at the handle rails at the top, the well deck ends pretty much after the last traffic light, so you will get max. 3 LCAC which is what i said 2-3 max. , certainly not 4

...

My first picture showed the last traffic light with the LCAC right there. Does that look like 30m? I don't know. But that's the length of the LCAC, so you have to accept that distance is how long the LCAC is.

Assuming the distance between each of the traffic lights are the same, then you can fit four LCACs in there.

Also, my second picture shows the boats jetties in the same place. The last traffic light is out of the photo shot, but we can see the third, second and first, and we know the jetties haven't moved by looking at piping on the wall in both photos. So your argument about "2-3" is again incorrect. There are four sets of traffic lights. The distance between each of them is the length of one LCAC. The well deck will fit four LCACs.

Whether it "looks like it can't" or not doesn't matter.

and in the cutaway im talking about is of Type 071, just look at the well deck in it, does it look like it can fit 4 LCAC? no i doubt it, then in the cutaway i posted it is shown it can carry 4, so which is right?

Again, you're eyeballing. This ship is big. The LCACs aren't small either. Once you orientate it a certain angle there will be distortion effects. Whether it "looks like it can fit 4 LCACs" is irrelevant. Objective comparison and logic have demonstrated it can. In fact, it is designed to.

so thats why lets just stick to real photos, and the hanger again is shown to extend way into the ship, in the pictures it doesnt even seem as close, that hanger is probably 40m max. 45m

those pictures are misleading due to distortion effects, so again, you are eyeballing.

I agree that you can argue the 071 cutaway is unqualified for our objective comparison. BUT, again, we do know they put two Z-8s and a Z-9 in the hangar, meaning they can put 2 Z-8s and 2 Z-9s in the hangar as well.

Remember that Z-8s tails fold, but Z-9s do not. Then, consider whether the designers would have designed the ship to hold 2 Z-8s and 2 Z-9s specifically, or would they have made it large enough to hold 4 Z-8s straight up (which would not have incurred a very significant length penalty anyway)?

We can agree to say the jury is still out as to whether 071 can hold 4 Z-8s. But I would argue the evidence we do have leans significantly in the direction of yes it can.

 

[Blitzo]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

Asif, I'll be blunt about it.

Your arguments need to be more than "it looks like it can/cannot fit this/that"... -______-

 

[patriota]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

4 LCAC, I think.

Just counting diferent elements in the walls, and you see the same distance in the traffic lights.

And the use of LCAC is for beaching heavy elements (like ZTZ-96/99), light elements (like booggeis for SOF), and assaults OTH (this is very interesting assuming a assault in cooperation with helos). A first wave of 12 LCAC (3 LPDs x 4 LCACs), transporting some booggeis and vehicles) and 6 Z-8 (2 Z-8 x 3 LPDs), encircled by 3 Z-9, armed with rocket pods and/or gun pods. If each Z-8 can transport 25 marines, a first wave can put in the beach/beaches (o inland) 150 marines, and at the same time 12 LCAC arrive to the beach/beaches, protected by the Z-9 and the PLAAF/PLAN coberture.

Meanwhile, the 3 LPDs and escorts are approaching the beach/beaches, waiting for the 12 LCACs and the 6 Z-8s, ready to embark another rotation of marines, in a second wave.

After the second wave (another 150 marines in helos, and heavy armor - no can swim for itself - in the LCACs, and needed in the beach/beaches, after disappeared the surprise factor, and for advancing inland), and still aprroaching the 3 LPDs and escorts, its the time for the rest of the marines in their swimming vehicles, because a minimum of 450-500 marines are in the beach/beaches, and the LPDs approaches a lot to the beach/beaches.

1/3 of the marines (450-500 in conservative numbers) are on the beach/beaches, and still no vehicle touch the sea, but you gain the surprise factor, the speed, trasport heavy vehicles and light vehicles that can´t swim, and can approach the LPDs to the beach/beaches for the rest of the marines.

Very decent.

Just imagine with a pair of LHDs ... the double of helos and the same LCACs.

 

[asif iqbal]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

Asif, I'll be blunt about it.

Your arguments need to be more than "it looks like it can/cannot fit this/that"... -______-

im being serious here, how many gaurd rails at the top can you count between the traffic lights, id say ~25, just zoom and count yourself, do you really think there is 25 gaurd railings after the 4th light?? that well deck is no more than 80-90 metres full length, if you can see it fine if not im not going to convince you

 

[steve_rolfe]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

From reading the recent posts and looking at the pictures and diagrams......i agree that the 071 can accomodate more hardware than people think.

I base this on 2 points.........taking into account what the real size of the boats shown in the photograph would be, gives you a guide to the real size of the hanger area.
But, its the angle of the photos which distorts the true vastness of the interior of the vessel.......the more of an end on view of the hanger well, the less you are able to gauge the true size............only a complete side view would help.

Having been inside a RN support vessel carrying spare helicopters, its surprising the huge space inside these vessels....in fact one would think you were not inside a ship but a giant steel shopping mall.
If i had taken a photo of the interior at an angle, and viewed it later, i wouldnt of been able to of guessed the interior size.

Just my two pennies worth!

ps:- is there any evidence yet of a build of a 4th vessel in this class??????

 

[patriota]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

im being serious here, how many gaurd rails at the top can you count between the traffic lights, id say ~25, just zoom and count yourself, do you really think there is 25 gaurd railings after the 4th light?? that well deck is no more than 80-90 metres full length, if you can see it fine if not im not going to convince you

Between every traffic light are 19-21 guard railings, except between the bow and the first traffic light (15-16 guard railings).

I think 4 LCACs is the correct number. 4 traffic lights and 4 LCACs. If 1 LCAC is in the first place (first traffic light), the rest 3 LCACs are in their places.

 

[Blitzo]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

im being serious here, how many gaurd rails at the top can you count between the traffic lights, id say ~25, just zoom and count yourself, do you really think there is 25 gaurd railings after the 4th light?? that well deck is no more than 80-90 metres full length, if you can see it fine if not im not going to convince you

I counted about 25 as well, between lights 4, 3, 2 and 1. But between traffic light 1 and the end of the well deck, the guard rail obviously doesn't extend to the direct aft of the ship, there's an empty space of about 8-10.

So basically you've just proven me right, that the spaces between the traffic lights (perhaps technically we should say "after" the traffic lights) are all equal.

Where did you get the 80-90m number? Eyeballing it again?

Actually, let's try and estimate how long the well deck is.

We know the LCAC itself is 33m long

via this:

We know the well deck is meant to fit four of them, so 33mx4 gives us 132m. 071's overall length is 210m.

132/210 = 0.63
So the length of the well deck is slightly longer than half 071s entire length.
Is that possible?
Well let's look at 071s entire length first from a position where perspective won't distort us

Then, mark a point 63% from the aft. That would be where the well deck ends.

Does it look reasonable? Does it coincide with known accurate cutaways and models of 071? Yes I think it does.

 

[asif iqbal]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

i still dont think you get it, if you have 4 lights it would mean 3 LCAC fit, theres no way a 4th unit can after the 4th light?> clear!

each red line is a LCAC

where do you propose to put the 4th LCAC, on top of the 3rd? count the spaces i marked in red on the wall all the way to the back, it doesnt add up, you cant fit 4 LCAC in that well deck doesnt matter which way you look at it

similarly you can lighten up the hanger and count the spaces on the wall and it does not work, its not enough for 4 x Z8