071 LPD thread

[Jeff Head]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

I suggest both of you read up more on PLAN amphibious assault and do not use USMC as the golden standard to set upon PLAN. PLAN had conducted amphibious assault exercise for 20 years, they do have their wise when comes to how amphibious assault shall be conducted.

Yes, it is true that the PLAN has been practising for 20+ years and they certainly have honed their skills in exercises and training...and that is very good.

But doing it in combat is something again and is what ultimately hones the training into a fine art.

The reason most people use the USMC as a "becnhmark," is because the US has in fact been doing amphibious assault in warfare since the early 1800s and the Barbary Pirate Wars.

The have the funds to conduct training more often, and more rigorously...but also have the benefit of all that combat experience, which has been extended to include air assault from amphibious vessels which the US is doing right now in its current conflicts, as well as amphibious assault when necessary.

So I will not discount the PLAN's expertise and their training. That is very critical and very laudable and places them in a league only a few nations can equal in terms of Amphibious capability and experience. But when it comes to adding to that training and planning actual experience from engaging with it in actual combat, there is no group on earth with the experience or expertise the US Marines have.

LCACs seem to be a singularly ineffecient way to put armoured equipment ashore. Even if Type 071 could carry four, which remains to be demonstrated, of course, that would only produce four AFVs. Using a 20,000-ton ship to land four tanks, what difference will that make anywhere? .

Actually it is not inefficient. It just depends on the number of vessels you have and the total number of LCACs and LCUs and amphibious assault tanks or APC they can put in the water. If the US comes to a shore with a couple of Wasp LHDs, a couple of San Antonio LPDs and 3-4 LSDs, they are going to be able to put 12-14 LCACs in the water at once, along with 8 LCUs and numerous smaller craft.

An LCAC can carry a single Abrams it is true, but they could also land four Stryker type IFVs, or two Strykers and four HMMVs of varying sorts, or six HMMVs. The LCUs can carry up to 200 troops, or a mixture of troops and light armor. So, with the type of force I just mentioned, you might land 8 Tanks, 12 IFVs, and 18 HMMVs, and upwards of 1,500 troops per wave, or some mix of that type of force.

...and then do six to eight waves of that until the whole force is ashore...and at the same time conduct air assaults on the flanks or in the enemy's rear while that was happening, and all with gunfire support and close air support in terms of attack helos and attack aircraft.

Mixed arms assault operations with LCACs is a very efficient and flexible way of conducting these operations and landing your armor wothout having a port or a landing strip to assist...and they do not have to land in the teeth of the enemies strongest defenses either. The whole operation could be conducted as a massive flanking maneuver itself.

If all you have is a couple of LPDs with a total of 6 LCACs, supported by four or more LSTs, then you are probably going to land a four or so tanks, numerpous IFVs and maybe 300-400 troops each wave. It just depends on what you have to bring to the operation and what your goals are.

 

[asif iqbal]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

Thing that gets me is that they are sending out all these great ships, and LCAC is always running empty, no sign of it actually carrying armoured vehicles to land on a beech, I mean 6 years later and they still have a lone Type 071 conducting the same excercise over and over again, nothing new! LCAC leaves the well deck, it hovers around and then goes back into the well deck, ok we get the point, can we start to see some real action!? How many times does this have to be repeated

It's great they are doing something but come on let's see something new for heavens sake

 

[Franklin]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

With all the talk here about amphibious warfare and LCAC's, does anyone know if the Zubr class LCAC's that China has ordered from the Ukraine have arrived in China yet ?

 

[Blitzo]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

Thing that gets me is that they are sending out all these great ships, and LCAC is always running empty, no sign of it actually carrying armoured vehicles to land on a beech, I mean 6 years later and they still have a lone Type 071 conducting the same excercise over and over again, nothing new! LCAC leaves the well deck, it hovers around and then goes back into the well deck, ok we get the point, can we start to see some real action!? How many times does this have to be repeated

It's great they are doing something but come on let's see something new for heavens sake

Actually, about a year ago we saw LCAC carrying a Type 96 to shore... Don't ask me to find it, I'm quite sure you can google or trawl through some past threads and you'll see it.

But the lack of progress on the lcac project is probably because it isn't high on their priority list atm, whether because their design isn't up to PLA standard, or maybe it just isn't very central to their doctrine atm.

 

[Blitzo]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

are you serious? there is no way the well deck is 120m+, thats about 60% of the overall length of the ship, that is what it would have to be to hold 4 LCAC, have you seen the well deck? its no longer than 80-90m at a strech, there is space only for 2 LCAC

and why are we looking at cutaways when we have real pictures of the inside, the model i posted clearly shows 4 LCAC and show the well deck extending way inside the ship, which is certainly not true from the real pictures

about the hanger, it is hard to see it exceed 40-45m, each Z8 is 23m in length you need "wiggle" space you need extra room, you need saftey line theres no way 4 x Z8 will fit in there, even if Z8 had folding tails still 4 x Z8 would struggle

so the carrying capacity is clearly 2 x LCAC and 2 x Z8 (plus maybe 2 x Z9) at a push

It's posts like this which make me wish I can automatically save pictures without the hassle of right clicking and uploading to a host.

First, all the cutaway models show 4 LCACs.

If that doesn't convince you, fine. Fair enough.

Here are pictures of 071s well deck during its aden excursion.
The first picture shows the LCAC at the end of the well deck.
The latter two give perspective of the rest of the well deck (note the positions of the boats in the second pic relative to the first pic, and how much space there still is down the well deck). I'm not trying to guesttimate length here and argue that four LCACs can fit inside because of it. No. Rather, you'll find four sets of "traffic lights" along the left upper handrails in the well deck, circled in yellow (btw these pictures were originally found by hmmvw over on CDF a year ago in a similar discussion).

Based on the first picture, we can see that the last traffic light is placed where the last LCAC will be able to see it in its parked position (that is to say the distance between the last traffic light and the end of the well deck is the length of an LCAC). There are four traffic lights. Assuming the distance between them do not change (again, use logic -- why woudl they??) then there are four LCAC distances within the well deck, yes?

I think it should be quite obvious by now the well deck is designed to hold 4 LCACs.

Further, we have no idea about the dimensions of the 071 hangar, but we have had this excellent cutaway from when 998 first went to aden. Now, clearly we can all agree that the hangar can fit two Z-8s, side by side, yes? So whether they can hold four or not depends on how long the hangar is. Considering the 998 aden expedition brought along two Z-8s and a Z-9 in its hangar, and if we assume the hangar would be logically designed as a rectangle, then there are four "zones" for helicopter placement so to speak (considering Z-8s tail can fold and Z-9s cannot, meaning their overall "hangar lengths" are similar).

That is somewhat confirmed by this excellent cutaway of 071 from when 998 went to aden, showing to Z-8s one behind the other. Obviously it would be best if we had a picture inside 071s hangar, but this picture, and using deductive reasoning, we can all but confirm 071 can hold 4 Z-8s.

I'm really not sure why this is so hard to believe. 071 has the space for 4 Z-8s in its superstructure, and we've all seen how long its welldeck is. Even without the traffic light analysis, you could eyeball it and fit four LCACs quite comfortably. I wonder if this disbelief is because san antonio's well deck can "only" hold 2 LCACs and its helicopter hangar "only" a couple of V-22s (whose compact dimensions are similar to a folded Z-8).
If so, then you are missing the point somewhat.

san antonio has multiple levels inside, that can store vehicles, supplies, whatever, whereas 071 only as the well deck and the forward AFV hall.

One may argue that 071 still cannot hold so "much" extra aviation assets and heavy LCACs while still being 7000 tons below san antonios max displacement! I agree. That is why that anecdote from a PLAN officer last year about 999 actually being 26-27k tons makes so much more sense.
I hope this objective comparison of 071 and san antonio can put the whole LCAC and helicopter deal to rest.

 

[kickars]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

I think it has been confirmed some time ago by PLAN on CCTV (not one of those presenters) that 998 can indeed accomandate 4 Z-8s in its hanger, and 4 LCACs in its well deck.

 

[kwaigonegin]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

It's posts like this which make me wish I can automatically save pictures without the hassle of right clicking and uploading to a host.

First, all the cutaway models show 4 LCACs.

If that doesn't convince you, fine. Fair enough.

Here are pictures of 071s well deck during its aden excursion.
The first picture shows the LCAC at the end of the well deck.
The latter two give perspective of the rest of the well deck (note the positions of the boats in the second pic relative to the first pic, and how much space there still is down the well deck). I'm not trying to guesttimate length here and argue that four LCACs can fit inside because of it. No. Rather, you'll find four sets of "traffic lights" along the left upper handrails in the well deck, circled in yellow (btw these pictures were originally found by hmmvw over on CDF a year ago in a similar discussion).

Based on the first picture, we can see that the last traffic light is placed where the last LCAC will be able to see it in its parked position (that is to say the distance between the last traffic light and the end of the well deck is the length of an LCAC). There are four traffic lights. Assuming the distance between them do not change (again, use logic -- why woudl they??) then there are four LCAC distances within the well deck, yes?

I think it should be quite obvious by now the well deck is designed to hold 4 LCACs.

Further, we have no idea about the dimensions of the 071 hangar, but we have had this excellent cutaway from when 998 first went to aden. Now, clearly we can all agree that the hangar can fit two Z-8s, side by side, yes? So whether they can hold four or not depends on how long the hangar is. Considering the 998 aden expedition brought along two Z-8s and a Z-9 in its hangar, and if we assume the hangar would be logically designed as a rectangle, then there are four "zones" for helicopter placement so to speak (considering Z-8s tail can fold and Z-9s cannot, meaning their overall "hangar lengths" are similar).

That is somewhat confirmed by this excellent cutaway of 071 from when 998 went to aden, showing to Z-8s one behind the other. Obviously it would be best if we had a picture inside 071s hangar, but this picture, and using deductive reasoning, we can all but confirm 071 can hold 4 Z-8s.

I'm really not sure why this is so hard to believe. 071 has the space for 4 Z-8s in its superstructure, and we've all seen how long its welldeck is. Even without the traffic light analysis, you could eyeball it and fit four LCACs quite comfortably. I wonder if this disbelief is because san antonio's well deck can "only" hold 2 LCACs and its helicopter hangar "only" a couple of V-22s (whose compact dimensions are similar to a folded Z-8).
If so, then you are missing the point somewhat.

san antonio has multiple levels inside, that can store vehicles, supplies, whatever, whereas 071 only as the well deck and the forward AFV hall.

One may argue that 071 still cannot hold so "much" extra aviation assets and heavy LCACs while still being 7000 tons below san antonios max displacement! I agree. That is why that anecdote from a PLAN officer last year about 999 actually being 26-27k tons makes so much more sense.
I hope this objective comparison of 071 and san antonio can put the whole LCAC and helicopter deal to rest.

Looks like the biggest difference between 071 and SA class is in the 071 the well deck extends almost the entire length of the ship which allows it to hold 4 LCAC's however there is a deficit at the expense of the AFV deck halls. Looks like in 071 there are doors that can be closed to extend the dry dock to hold more equipment if necessary which in case it can then only hold 2 LCACs.

I would be curious to see how the elevator would operate to bring heavy equipment down to the LCAC's if the well deck is extended all the way almost to the front. There is just no physical way based on what I see on the cut out interior drawings.

 

[Lion]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

Thing that gets me is that they are sending out all these great ships, and LCAC is always running empty, no sign of it actually carrying armoured vehicles to land on a beech, I mean 6 years later and they still have a lone Type 071 conducting the same excercise over and over again, nothing new! LCAC leaves the well deck, it hovers around and then goes back into the well deck, ok we get the point, can we start to see some real action!? How many times does this have to be repeated

It's great they are doing something but come on let's see something new for heavens sake

Probably you shall also get track of the number of ZTD-05/ZBD2000 they inducted in span of just few years. Clearly they like this beast a lot that they put a significant numbers of vehicle in service. Almost all PLAN marine mechanised can swim. The important of LCAC diminish further. I think the biggest disadvantage of using LCAC is having too much asset on a single boat. As i mention, having a full loaded LCAC sink is no no joke. PLAN like to spread out their asset while at the same time firing on move if needed. Clearly they prefer ZBD2000 spread out in high speed assault approach.

 

[MwRYum]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

Probably you shall also get track of the number of ZTD-05/ZBD2000 they inducted in span of just few years. Clearly they like this beast a lot that they put a significant numbers of vehicle in service. Almost all PLAN marine mechanised can swim. The important of LCAC diminish further. I think the biggest disadvantage of using LCAC is having too much asset on a single boat. As i mention, having a full loaded LCAC sink is no no joke. PLAN like to spread out their asset while at the same time firing on move if needed. Clearly they prefer ZBD2000 spread out in high speed assault approach.

Probably a mix of multi-prong assault options, as well as hardware realities and perspective operational environments:

1. Using LCAC is not just to deploy heavy assets onto beachhead from ashore faster, but also you can deploy assets that can't swim and on other beachheads that's not suitable for amphibious units;
2. Despite the construction of further 071 LPDs and even the rumored LHDs, plus beginning serial production of Type 726 LCAC, PLAN's amphibious deployment assets are still predominately LSTs, which means deployment of amphibious vehicles still has to reliant on the traditional options for some time to come;
3. Now comes the tricky part: most scenario types that faces the PLAN when comes to amphibious ops actually have less chances to deploy LCAC - most "islands" in the SCS, barring those very few that's big enough to support airstrip, most either have very small pieces of flat land or simply a few rocks jutted out of the water at high tide; in Diaoyu Islands there's next to no suitable beaches, most are just rocky shores; even in the increasingly unlikely scenario of Taiwan and those 2 outlaying islands, wave erosion have reduced suitable landing beaches even further...that said, in those cases the better approach would be amphibious vehicles in conjunction with attack + transport helicopters...yet the PLAN naval aviation have yet getting the needed expansion in terms of its vertical aviation assets, nor the most suitable platform (071 provides better helicopter platform than LST, but still not good enough).

 

[asif iqbal]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

It's posts like this which make me wish I can automatically save pictures without the hassle of right clicking and uploading to a host.

First, all the cutaway models show 4 LCACs.

If that doesn't convince you, fine. Fair enough.

Here are pictures of 071s well deck during its aden excursion.
The first picture shows the LCAC at the end of the well deck.
The latter two give perspective of the rest of the well deck (note the positions of the boats in the second pic relative to the first pic, and how much space there still is down the well deck). I'm not trying to guesttimate length here and argue that four LCACs can fit inside because of it. No. Rather, you'll find four sets of "traffic lights" along the left upper handrails in the well deck, circled in yellow (btw these pictures were originally found by hmmvw over on CDF a year ago in a similar discussion).

Based on the first picture, we can see that the last traffic light is placed where the last LCAC will be able to see it in its parked position (that is to say the distance between the last traffic light and the end of the well deck is the length of an LCAC). There are four traffic lights. Assuming the distance between them do not change (again, use logic -- why woudl they??) then there are four LCAC distances within the well deck, yes?

I think it should be quite obvious by now the well deck is designed to hold 4 LCACs.

Further, we have no idea about the dimensions of the 071 hangar, but we have had this excellent cutaway from when 998 first went to aden. Now, clearly we can all agree that the hangar can fit two Z-8s, side by side, yes? So whether they can hold four or not depends on how long the hangar is. Considering the 998 aden expedition brought along two Z-8s and a Z-9 in its hangar, and if we assume the hangar would be logically designed as a rectangle, then there are four "zones" for helicopter placement so to speak (considering Z-8s tail can fold and Z-9s cannot, meaning their overall "hangar lengths" are similar).

That is somewhat confirmed by this excellent cutaway of 071 from when 998 went to aden, showing to Z-8s one behind the other. Obviously it would be best if we had a picture inside 071s hangar, but this picture, and using deductive reasoning, we can all but confirm 071 can hold 4 Z-8s.

I'm really not sure why this is so hard to believe. 071 has the space for 4 Z-8s in its superstructure, and we've all seen how long its welldeck is. Even without the traffic light analysis, you could eyeball it and fit four LCACs quite comfortably. I wonder if this disbelief is because san antonio's well deck can "only" hold 2 LCACs and its helicopter hangar "only" a couple of V-22s (whose compact dimensions are similar to a folded Z-8).
If so, then you are missing the point somewhat.

san antonio has multiple levels inside, that can store vehicles, supplies, whatever, whereas 071 only as the well deck and the forward AFV hall.

One may argue that 071 still cannot hold so "much" extra aviation assets and heavy LCACs while still being 7000 tons below san antonios max displacement! I agree. That is why that anecdote from a PLAN officer last year about 999 actually being 26-27k tons makes so much more sense.
I hope this objective comparison of 071 and san antonio can put the whole LCAC and helicopter deal to rest.

i can only see half of your pictures and still some cutaways, why are we looking at inaccurate cutaways when real pictures are there, we already know they are wrong, please re-post

and im guessing you circled these pics by hand? they are meant to be 30m apart, they dont look it, look at the size of the small boats they look 10m easily, we can fit 12 in there??