056 class FFL/corvette

Geographer · Aug 13, 2012

The TAS debate is an example of wishful thinking. The PLAN enthusiasts on the board know that ASW is a hole in PLAN and desperately want the 056 to plug that gap. In trying to read the tea leaves a certain way, the pro-TAS members are being very generous in their interpretations of the ship design, even when the bulk of the evidence that Mysterre has presented shows the 056 does not have a TAS. It's gotten to the point where members are speculating about what might or could be added in future versions. While speculation is natural any enthusiast message board, this kind of speculation is useless because anything could be modified to be something different. The 054A class could be stretched, widened, and hollowed out to make it an amphibious assault ship, but that's silly to speculate about because it'd no longer be the 054A as we know it.

All the evidence available to us indicates the 056 does not have a TAS, and is thus not a dedicated ASW ship. The PLAN is just going to have to come up with another solution to the ASW capabilities hole.

Off-topic but it makes me curious: what are the big domes pointing left and right above the hanger on the 054A here?

SampanViking · Aug 13, 2012

There is a sense that a lot of people do not think a ship is complete unless it has every facility in the package. Personally I think that this flies against the concept of Integrated Defence Networks, especially the Chinese version "Informationalisation".

So question?
Can we suppose that the 056 could receive offensive information for sub hunting and be able to act upon it?

If yes, what platform could provide that information feed for the 056?

This would be a perfect example of how I see the Chinese perfecting their low cost defence systems and being able to sell them as a full package for export, including seekers, shooters and all of course locked together through use of the Beidou positioning and guidance network.

no_name · Aug 13, 2012

Geographer said:
Off-topic but it makes me curious: what are the big domes pointing left and right above the hanger on the 054A here?

Fire control radars for HQ missiles like a derivative of the MR-90 Front Dome. There are four on her, two others on the side of the bridge.

Mysterre · Aug 13, 2012

SampanViking said:
There is a sense that a lot of people do not think a ship is complete unless it has every facility in the package. Personally I think that this flies against the concept of Integrated Defence Networks, especially the Chinese version "Informationalisation".

So question?
Can we suppose that the 056 could receive offensive information for sub hunting and be able to act upon it?

If yes, what platform could provide that information feed for the 056?

This would be a perfect example of how I see the Chinese perfecting their low cost defence systems and being able to sell them as a full package for export, including seekers, shooters and all of course locked together through use of the Beidou positioning and guidance network.

The only way for a 056 to be able to act on cue from a remote targeting source is if it replaced its 4 YJ-83's with CY-X-type rocket-boosted torpedoes, which I do not believe the PLAN has any in service AFAIK (so we are talking about a fictional scenario here). OTOH their ranges are typically only around 20-30km and 4 rounds sounds rather skimpy to me anyway. It certainly wouldn't be able to act by using its complement of torpedoes unless a submarine were within a few km, in which case it is almost certainly the one being hunted rather than the other way around. A remote targeting source would have to be another ship with TAS or a helicopter with a dipping sonar or that has deployed sonobuoys. In the future maybe a Y-8 ASW. I believe PLAN has also deployed SOSUS-type surveillance nets at the mouth of Bohai Bay, stretching between Liaoning and Shandong provinces, and I would suspect other places as well, including around its new base at Sanya. But IIRC the information obtained from SOSUS is not target quality and would need to be further localized. Similarly, satellites with wave-tracking technology, IR, or SAR such as the ones the US is almost certainly using to help track PLAN subs now, may some day also be used by the PLAN, but they would also not likely be target-quality tracks, and would be fleeting, as any satellite track would have to be, and would have to be part of a larger, more comprehensive tracking system. Also, it should be noted that pretty much every ship in the PLAN that already has a TAS, already has a means of acting on the information provided by its TAS and wouldn't need a 056 to be present. Every ASW helicopter already has a means to act on information it obtains from sonars/sonobuoys. Every Y-8 ASW would certainly already have weapons on board to attack targets that it picks up. These are complete sensor/weapon packages that don't require the presence of either an external sensor or an external weapon to take down a sub.

An effective ASW platform requires BOTH one or more means of long range detection and one or more means of long range attack. The 056 currently has neither. And unless someone knows something new about PLAN bow sonar technology that I don't, that little stub of a sonar on the 056 wouldn't even make out to the first convergence zone. But put both a TAS and an ASW helo on it and the story changes. OTOH, as people have been saying, what if the PLAN does not intend the 056 to be used in offensive ASW at all? And while it's lovely to imagine a bunch of little ships running around trying to pick up subs with TAS stringing out the back, if you don't have the weapons to promptly act on sensor information, what's the point?

Totoro · Aug 14, 2012

what was with the open door day in hong kong where a 054a frigate was free to the public and there were various signs put up around the ship, one of them, near the VLS, was quoted with VLS carrying anti-air missiles and antisubmarine torpedoes?

hmmwv · Aug 14, 2012

Totoro said:
what was with the open door day in hong kong where a 054a frigate was free to the public and there were various signs put up around the ship, one of them, near the VLS, was quoted with VLS carrying anti-air missiles and antisubmarine torpedoes?

Yes the information board about the 054A VLS indicates that it can launch SAM and rocket assisted torpedo. We know CY2 exists but we have yet to see any evidence suggesting that it's in active service with the PLAN. If it is we sure should have seen it now in some random reports on CCTV7.

SampanViking · Aug 14, 2012

Mysterre said:
The only way for a 056 to be able to act on cue from a remote targeting source is if it replaced its 4 YJ-83's with CY-X-type rocket-boosted torpedoes, which I do not believe the PLAN has any in service AFAIK (so we are talking about a fictional scenario here). OTOH their ranges are typically only around 20-30km and 4 rounds sounds rather skimpy to me anyway. It certainly wouldn't be able to act by using its complement of torpedoes unless a submarine were within a few km, in which case it is almost certainly the one being hunted rather than the other way around. A remote targeting source would have to be another ship with TAS or a helicopter with a dipping sonar or that has deployed sonobuoys. In the future maybe a Y-8 ASW. I believe PLAN has also deployed SOSUS-type surveillance nets at the mouth of Bohai Bay, stretching between Liaoning and Shandong provinces, and I would suspect other places as well, including around its new base at Sanya. But IIRC the information obtained from SOSUS is not target quality and would need to be further localized. Similarly, satellites with wave-tracking technology, IR, or SAR such as the ones the US is almost certainly using to help track PLAN subs now, may some day also be used by the PLAN, but they would also not likely be target-quality tracks, and would be fleeting, as any satellite track would have to be, and would have to be part of a larger, more comprehensive tracking system. Also, it should be noted that pretty much every ship in the PLAN that already has a TAS, already has a means of acting on the information provided by its TAS and wouldn't need a 056 to be present. Every ASW helicopter already has a means to act on information it obtains from sonars/sonobuoys. Every Y-8 ASW would certainly already have weapons on board to attack targets that it picks up. These are complete sensor/weapon packages that don't require the presence of either an external sensor or an external weapon to take down a sub.

An effective ASW platform requires BOTH one or more means of long range detection and one or more means of long range attack. The 056 currently has neither. And unless someone knows something new about PLAN bow sonar technology that I don't, that little stub of a sonar on the 056 wouldn't even make out to the first convergence zone. But put both a TAS and an ASW helo on it and the story changes. OTOH, as people have been saying, what if the PLAN does not intend the 056 to be used in offensive ASW at all? And while it's lovely to imagine a bunch of little ships running around trying to pick up subs with TAS stringing out the back, if you don't have the weapons to promptly act on sensor information, what's the point?

Points taken and understood

I think cued situational awareness does open to possibilities worth considering. With awareness and torpedoes, we do have a potential "dogs and guns" scenario in which 056 can make a lot of noise and chase an enemy into the less than tender embrace of a quieter hunter.

It also seems logical to ensure that if you carry a UACV on board, that it could be used in a ASW role, assuming of course that a suitable weapon exists in the PLAN arsenal?

But again I agree with your central premise which is that it is not necessary to have every ship carrying every possible form of sensor or weapon. It is the "Informationalisation" that counts and enables a lot more to done, far more effectively and for less.

Mysterre · Aug 14, 2012

SampanViking said:
With awareness and torpedoes, we do have a potential "dogs and guns" scenario in which 056 can make a lot of noise and chase an enemy into the less than tender embrace of a quieter hunter.

In terms of making noise from a sub's point of view, the only noise that matters is the ping of an active sonar in its area. The 056 already has this capability in its little bow sonar. It could theoretically bang away at its sonar along with a couple of its friends and drive an enemy sub into a trap. Though this Hunt-for-Red-Octoberesque tactic seems possible, it presupposes two things. The first is that the sub is repelled by active sonar rather than attracted to it. If the sub captain feels he can snuff you out before you can get in a position to attack him, he will go ahead and do exactly that. In the case of the 056 with no standoff ASW weapons to speak of, going active would probably be suicide without another ship nearby that can defend it. A typical hunter-killer sub uses heavy, long-range, fast-moving antiship torpedoes (e.g. Mk 48) that will outclass any of the lighter, slower and shorter-range anti-sub torpedoes that ships typically carry (e.g. Yu-7), not to mention any popup antiship missiles the sub might be carrying. With that kind of mismatch, a tail-chase type of engagement where a sub's torpedo is chasing the ship while the ship's torpedo is making a head-on attack against the sub is really the only realistic chance for a ship to survive going torpedo-vs-torpedo against a sub, assuming we're talking about an SSN.

The second is that you have a general idea where the enemy sub is, even if just something like "northeast of us". If you don't, the ocean is a big place, and randomly pinging in open ocean will not likely result in any worthwhile gains. Currently the PLAN (for the most part) lacks the assets to make this a realistic tactic. More SOSUS nets along with the development of sub-detecting satellites and SURTASS/LFA-equipped ships would go a long way towards giving the PLAN a better picture of the undersea environment and help facilitate the kind of trap tactics you're describing. BTW those ships are supposedly pretty badass for detecting subs, even if they do kill whales sometimes.... But I think all of that stuff is at least 10-20 years away for the PLAN.

SampanViking said:
It also seems logical to ensure that if you carry a UACV on board, that it could be used in a ASW role, assuming of course that a suitable weapon exists in the PLAN arsenal?

A UAV helo that could fit on a 056 couldn't carry more than a few one-use sonobuoys to a short distance out, which makes the long-range sub detection capability of the 056 both limited and temporary. It would also have to replace that rear section of the ship that is sandwiched between the torpedo launchers with a UAV hangar and move what is inside there now to somewhere else on the ship, and given that the ship is only 1,000-1,400 tons, there aren't many extra places to relocate to. Unless you want to stretch the ship, in which case you might as well put a real hangar in there. And then of course there is always the problem of how to attack your sonar contact, should you get lucky enough to find one.....

asif iqbal · Aug 14, 2012

First I don’t think a few Type 056s can just “bang” away and wait for an active sonar to pick up a submarine, that simply just doesn’t happen, because when using active sonar you also get lots of background noise, your signal to noise ratio is critical, are you aware of the underwater features and landmarks, can you tell when you over deep canyons etc etc , and it takes a very talent operator to recognise what he is looking at

Changes in the oceans salinity cause many problems for active sonar as does changes in temperature, this is completely different topic

Secondly when hunting for submarine all the advantages lies with the sub, because it can hide but the surface vessel cant , and SSN captains are a small elite group of submariners that are second to none, their selection process is the one of toughest jobs in the navy

The best and only way to submarine hunt is to deploy your own hunter killer submarine, failing that there are one other solution, that is ASW helicopter, and that’s where the Z9C comes in, Pakistan Navy has acquired this type and it is a pretty good helo for searching for submarines with relatively good sensors, if nothing else any SSNs nightmare is when a ASW helo is detected, then all the disadvantage lie with the submarine, the helo can either engage or rely the info to a surface ship which can then attack

And lastly a UAV can be used for ASW, when your only Z9C comes into re-fuel, or re-arm or new crews take over you lose your greatest ASW asset for that period of time, that’s when a rotor blade UAV or UACV can take over keeping eyes and hears in the water, it does not mean it will necessarily be an attack platform

the fact that Type 056 even has a helo platform is good enough asset for ASW, obviously depending on what helo it will carry

SampanViking · Aug 14, 2012

Mysterre said:
In terms of making noise from a sub's point of view, the only noise that matters is the ping of an active sonar in its area. The 056 already has this capability in its little bow sonar. It could theoretically bang away at its sonar along with a couple of its friends and drive an enemy sub into a trap. Though this Hunt-for-Red-Octoberesque tactic seems possible, it presupposes two things. The first is that the sub is repelled by active sonar rather than attracted to it. If the sub captain feels he can snuff you out before you can get in a position to attack him, he will go ahead and do exactly that. In the case of the 056 with no standoff ASW weapons to speak of, going active would probably be suicide without another ship nearby that can defend it. A typical hunter-killer sub uses heavy, long-range, fast-moving antiship torpedoes (e.g. Mk 48) that will outclass any of the lighter, slower and shorter-range anti-sub torpedoes that ships typically carry (e.g. Yu-7), not to mention any popup antiship missiles the sub might be carrying. With that kind of mismatch, a tail-chase type of engagement where a sub's torpedo is chasing the ship while the ship's torpedo is making a head-on attack against the sub is really the only realistic chance for a ship to survive going torpedo-vs-torpedo against a sub, assuming we're talking about an SSN.

The second is that you have a general idea where the enemy sub is, even if just something like "northeast of us". If you don't, the ocean is a big place, and randomly pinging in open ocean will not likely result in any worthwhile gains. Currently the PLAN (for the most part) lacks the assets to make this a realistic tactic. More SOSUS nets along with the development of sub-detecting satellites and SURTASS/LFA-equipped ships would go a long way towards giving the PLAN a better picture of the undersea environment and help facilitate the kind of trap tactics you're describing. BTW those ships are supposedly pretty badass for detecting subs, even if they do kill whales sometimes.... But I think all of that stuff is at least 10-20 years away for the PLAN.

A UAV helo that could fit on a 056 couldn't carry more than a few one-use sonobuoys to a short distance out, which makes the long-range sub detection capability of the 056 both limited and temporary. It would also have to replace that rear section of the ship that is sandwiched between the torpedo launchers with a UAV hangar and move what is inside there now to somewhere else on the ship, and given that the ship is only 1,000-1,400 tons, there aren't many extra places to relocate to. Unless you want to stretch the ship, in which case you might as well put a real hangar in there. And then of course there is always the problem of how to attack your sonar contact, should you get lucky enough to find one.....

the general point I am really trying to make here is that the 056 is hardly ever going to be operating in areas and under conditions, where; as a platform, it is on its own. I have always seen it as a piece in the network and to be honest, the pawns of this chess board.

I hoped I had made clear that it would always be working in conjunction with other more sophisticated platforms, which will provide better situation awareness and execute the final coup de grace. My basic point is that a ship of this type could participate is something like ASW in China's littorals without itself needing to be outfitted with the latest and best detection systems or weapons.

The scenario of my previous post was one where the general position of a sub was known and something big and nasty was moving in to finish it off. The 056's were there to shrink the Ocean and cause distraction and uncertainly. In a similar vein I was not thinking of a UACV with sonar bouys, but something potentially fatal it could drop onto a known target, detected and designated by a larger and more capable ship etc etc. I could believe that such a ship could be used as bait if there were other platforms staying silent or above the water, able to give them support.

I have no doubt that the low cost "dumb terminal" approach is the one that best describes the envisaged operations doctrine of the class of ship and I am just trying to illustrate what that could mean. If a specific illustration is not feasible, it just means that the PLAN would not try and do it that particular way.

056 class FFL/corvette

Geographer

Junior Member

SampanViking

The Capitalist

no_name

Colonel

Mysterre

Banned Idiot

Totoro

Major

hmmwv

Junior Member

SampanViking

The Capitalist

Mysterre

Banned Idiot

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General

SampanViking

The Capitalist