055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

[AndrewS]

You are talking about using the ship's sonar to locate the sub, but nowadays navy use helicopters flying far out to locate subs, the ASW ships are just carriers, they themselves don't have to be that specifically built.

Well, the thing with ASW is that you need 2 sensors in order to triangulate.

That could be any combination of ships or helicopters for example.

 

[no_name]

If two navies go to war: one side has good submarines while the other side has good ASW - ships, then who wins?

The one with the mostest wins.

 

[Gloire_bb]

how does the PLAN CSG's planes avoid or fight past a larger hostile CAP backed by naval SAMs to get within firing range?

If you don't mind, i'll cut out these two, since those are tactical questions, not just technical.

(1)unless something went terribly wrong, strike package will always outnumber CAP
- it's just the nature of initiative.
Expanded CAP can almost match it - but only this much, carriers are not land bases, and are severely limited by deck size.

for other parts - ew & curvature of the Earth shall be able to do the trick.
it's always somewhat tricky to guess if sword or shield has the overall advantage, but all things being equal, it tends to be sword.

how is it advantageous to get within YJ-12/18 range which is still shorter range than ASBM range?

Range isn't the only metric.
first of all, non-hypersonic ASCMs don't immediately rush up, and they don't immediately give up your position at launch.

Secondly, aerodynamic ASCMs can form salvo patterns, in both space and time.

Thirdly, their search envelope is larger - the slower the missile, the better its search capability. ASBM has to be aimed very precisely at calculated point(the more EW and distance, the higher accuracy requirement). No search pattern is possible.

Finally, cruise missiles can easily be coordinated with other aerodynamic assets - planes, decoys, loitering munitions and ARMs. ASBMs can probably be coordinated with SAMs(surface2surface mode) and faster hypersonics, but that's it. And those will hardly allow something overly imaginative.

 

[Andy1974]

If you don't mind, i'll cut out these two, since those are tactical questions, not just technical.

(1)unless something went terribly wrong, strike package will always outnumber CAP
- it's just the nature of initiative.
Expanded CAP can almost match it - but only this much, carriers are not land bases, and are severely limited by deck size.

for other parts - ew & curvature of the Earth shall be able to do the trick.
it's always somewhat tricky to guess if sword or shield has the overall advantage, but all things being equal, it tends to be sword.

Range isn't the only metric.
first of all, non-hypersonic ASCMs don't immediately rush up, and they don't immediately give up your position at launch.

Secondly, aerodynamic ASCMs can form salvo patterns, in both space and time.

Thirdly, their search envelope is larger - the slower the missile, the better its search capability. ASBM has to be aimed very precisely at calculated point(the more EW and distance, the higher accuracy requirement). No search pattern is possible.

Finally, cruise missiles can easily be coordinated with other aerodynamic assets - planes, decoys, loitering munitions and ARMs. ASBMs can probably be coordinated with SAMs(surface2surface mode) and faster hypersonics, but that's it. And those will hardly allow something overly imaginative.

ASBMs are themselves ISR assets, at apogee they have huge search range, any targets detected can then be targeted by follow on ASBMs.

A small group of ships based around a 055 could launch ASBMs in ISR mode in a staggered salvo pattern, spotting all surface ships in a very wide area. Once detected, the remaining ASBMs target the ships.

Please note, this kill chain is completely organic to the group, or even just the 055 itself, and all communication is line-of-sight.

Edit: this kill chain also doesn’t need any sensors apart from those in the missile, and there is only one type of missile involved, so it should be affordable to do this at scale, there is even the future possibility of recovering and recycling missiles that aren’t going to be used to strike.

 

[Gloire_bb]

ASBMs are themselves ISR assets, at apogee they have huge search range, any targets detected can then be targeted by follow on ASBMs.

Small seeker with very little energy, onboard processing power and limited datalink bandwidth, working against surface clutter at the worst possible angle - and doing it from range more suitable for AEW aircraft. No deal.
As a result, ASBMs see targets by their own means only for a short while late in their attack. Thus position and course of the target has to be calculated/updated very precisely.

Detecting sea targets with active radar from asbm apogee looks like this, not as a puny active seeker heat-resistant asbm warhead can hope to keep:

 

[Andy1974]

Small seeker with very little energy, onboard processing power and limited datalink bandwidth, working against surface clutter at the worst possible angle - and doing it from range more suitable for AEW aircraft. No deal.
As a result, ASBMs see targets by their own means only for a short while late in their attack. Thus position and course of the target has to be calculated/updated very precisely.

Detecting sea targets with active radar from asbm apogee looks like this, not as a puny active seeker heat-resistant asbm warhead can hope to keep:

Still, the concept works, just use a SAR payload in the first salvo. This is already an operational concept that has been put into practice last year apparently. A double launch with satelittle and DF21.

 

[gongolongo]

Unlike the US the PLAN does not seem to want to use Type 055s for long distance patrols on their own like the US does with the Burke DDGs. They just seem to be used as air defense cover for the carrier battle groups like the Ticos. Still I kind of wonder why they aren't building more Type 055s at least to provide air cover for the LHDs.

Anyway, just think of it this way, the Type 055 basically matches the Ticos, and the Type 052D the Arleigh Burke in PLAN doctrine. A lot of long distance missions are also done with smaller frigates which the US currently lacks. And the area of coverage of operations of the PLAN is much smaller than the US Navy's. In short the average Chinese PLAN ship doing the same mission has lower displacement than a US one. Partly because the Chinese go in much shorter range missions on average.

This is going to get lopsided as the Arleigh Burke Flight III larger ships come in and the Ticos get phased out, plus the new US Constellation frigates start showing up. But for now it is how things are.

They are trialing the first batch to test the design most likely. You don't want to produce too many of a single design if there are flaws. 5 modern destroyers is already more than what most top navies around the world have.

 

[charles18]

Small seeker with very little energy, onboard processing power and limited datalink bandwidth, working against surface clutter at the worst possible angle - and doing it from range more suitable for AEW aircraft. No deal.
As a result, ASBMs see targets by their own means only for a short while late in their attack. Thus position and course of the target has to be calculated/updated very precisely.

Detecting sea targets with active radar from asbm apogee looks like this, not as a puny active seeker heat-resistant asbm warhead can hope to keep:
...

If the targeted war ship travels at a speed of 30 mph and it takes the ASBM missile 40 minutes to reach its target, then the ship will be at most 20 miles away from its original position. 30 * (40 / 60) = 20
In theory the radar sensors on the ASBM only needs to scan an area the size of a circle with a radius of 20 miles. This is perfectly doable.

 

[Gloire_bb]

If the targeted war ship travels at a speed of 30 mph and it takes the ASBM missile 40 minutes to reach its target, then the ship will be at most 20 miles away from its original position. 30 * (40 / 60) = 20
In theory the radar sensors on the ASBM only needs to scan an area the size of a circle with a radius of 20 miles. This is perfectly doable.

You're working with something not overly superior to AAM seeker, working for several dozens of seconds (right before reentry), scanning against surface (least convenient), and against arguably most unfriendly EW environment one can encounter anywhere on Earth.
And all that is a problem even in the case of a completely uninterrupted kill chain.

There is a whole list of very serious reasons, why ASBMs, with their numerous obvious advantages, aren't really mainstream anti-ship weapons even within the Chinese military.
It's a very powerful instrument, but instrument that has to be used right even with a clean ~superpower level targeting chain.

 

[tphuang]

At this point, ASBM (and more generally hypersonic AShm) are definitely mainstream within PLA. That's what shilao and his gang said. According to @Patchwork_Chimera, DF-26, DF-17 and even PCL-191 all have anti-ship versions. That's the future of their SRBM, MRBM, IRBM. And it will be increasingly adopted onto 055, which is more like the Chinese Kirov class.