055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

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tphuang

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HHQ-9 in triple digits? Has the PLAN managed to quad-pack the HHQ-9 missiles into their UVLS already?


I really do wonder about the progress of the rumored 5-5-5 missile so far... Any yet?


Honestly, I still see a lot of people on Quora, in particular those who are current/former US military and/or US Navy personnel, who actually dismisses the threat of the naval-based YJ-18 and YJ-21 AShMs, plus the land-based hypersonic DF-17, ballistic DF-21 and DF-26 AShMs. They also presented that the US Navy has various methods, and is very, very confident of swapping all of them out of the sky with ease.

Or at least, that's what I can infer from these Quorans.

I don't take most comments on Quora all that seriously. I do remember seeing an article on the war zone recently where a usn official basically talked very nonchalantly about asbm threat. That's why I thought they were not taking 055s very seriously.

Even if a 055 is just used to launch 64 yj18 in a short period of time, that would be pretty hard to intercept and it can do it from well over 500km away. Yj18 by itself would be one of the most impressive anti ship missiles out there. But now with hypersonic antiship missiles, you have something with even longer range and far harder to intercept. Sure, sm6 or sm3 can intercept a few of them. Facing large breadth of them is where the threat comes from. 055 has more firepower by itself than any Soviet surface ship ever did. Even if we account for the 30 year time gap.
 

lzmfVw

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I do remember seeing an article on the war zone recently where a usn official basically talked very nonchalantly about asbm threat. That's why I thought they were not taking 055s very seriously.
I was reading "Carrier Killer: China's Anti-Ship Ballistic Missiles and Theater of Operations in the early 21st Century" (ISBN-10: 1915070643) and the authors hold a similar skeptical view on China's current ASBM capabilities, citing the following:

- Test of DF-21D and DF-26 in November 2020 were not assessed by the U.S. as having hit moving targets at sea
- In 2021, another wrinkle emerged: after testing at sea, China moved ASBM development back on land in the Taklamakan Desert. New facilities included two Arleigh Burke-shaped targets, and on target in the shape of a US supercarrier. On top of that, there was a warship-sized model mounted on 6-meter-wide tracks that appeared to be designed to carry it on an S-shaped path for several kilometers. One possible implication is that they were unsatisfied with the missile's performance in its closest approach to a real-world test.
- Calculation of DF-21D needing 82 missiles to create an 80 percent chance of a kill, without countermeasures. China fields only two brigades of DF-21Ds, each with about a dozen launchers. (No mention of DF-26, but it was perceived as not too dissimilar)
 

ironborn

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You don't need to sink a carrier to take it out of action at sea, enough damage to flight deck will render it useless, may also need to pull other escorts to run it back to port.
I am aware of that some damages can be repaired at sea, but given the complexity of today's warship, unless it's a fender bender, most likely the ship has to return to port to be repaired.
 

alfreddango

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oh boy, Patchwork_Chimera has posted again, imma go grab a cup of tea and get comfy
empyr-pepe.gif
 

tphuang

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Thanks again @Patchwork_Chimera for your insights.

You don't need to sink a carrier to take it out of action at sea, enough damage to flight deck will render it useless, may also need to pull other escorts to run it back to port.
I am aware of that some damages can be repaired at sea, but given the complexity of today's warship, unless it's a fender bender, most likely the ship has to return to port to be repaired.
Keep in mind that AGM-183A had a warhead of just 150lb in order to be carried by B-52 and have range of 1000 km and reach hypersonic speed. That's with a 5000 lb missiles with 25.9 inch diameter (650 mm) and 232 inch long (5.8 m).

For something launched from UVLS, it will use about the max diameter, let's say 850 mm and max length of 9m. It's going to be about 2.5 times the size of AGM-183A. In order to achieve hypersonic speed from sea launch and reach desired range (let's say at least 1000 km, ideally 1500 km), it's going to have a very small warhead. Even at high speed and dropping straight down, it's not a given that type of impact will even render a flight deck useless. My understanding is YJ-18 will make greater impact on a warship than any other AShM launched from UVLS. I would think it's unlikely to sink a larger destroyer or even a 7000t "frigate" with one UVLS launched hypersonic strike. As such, the initial strike will probably just vastly deteriorate the compact capability of the ship that got hit. And render them unable to counter follow on strikes like air launched YJ-12s or UVLS launched YJ-18s.

That's why I would expect 055 to carry a variety of high performance anti-ship missiles. Also, they are probably going to have a lot more YJ-18s than hypersonic missiles.

That book is sort of "meh" for a variety of reasons, which I'd rather not get too much into, otherwise I'll end up writing a reply about as long as the book itself.
Thanks, I did read some of Blake's commentaries and found myself rather unimpressed.
Do note, DF-21D is not their mainstay AShBM as people seem to believe for some reason. It was practically a tech demo for what is now their "main" IRBM, DF-26 - which has hotswappable anti-ship, conventional explosive, or nuclear payloads. Right now, they're sooorta standardizing around the DF-16/17 platform as an MRBM system, DF-26 as an IRBM system, and are procuring DF-100s as their GLCM system.
That's my understanding also regarding DF-21D and DF-26. Question on DF-100, have you seen it being used in an anti-shipping rule or is it mostly a ground attack platform?

Do they still have a SRBM platform or is that reserved for MRLS now?
DF-26 as a platform is a pretty good deal more capable than DF-21, being (kinetically) a higher energy system (pushing interceptor Pkss numbers down) with more modern internals, whereas DF-21 is basically a JL-1 with land-loving characteristics lol. Thus, even if that 82 munition estimate were in line with reality (it isn't, the author is just a goober - we don't even typically have 80 SM-6 aboard most CSGs that hang out in 7FLT AOR), the number of DF-26 required would be a decent amount lower.
Which makes the entire idea of utilizing SM-6 for anti-shipping duties quite preposterous.
Furthermore, any anti-shipping action against a US CSG would be a fairly extensive, mult-component effort. There isn't much reason to waste munitions by generating low bandwidth, high depth salvos - when to penetrate missile defense systems, what you need is high bandwidth at all costs. In addition to AShBMs, there would be a *very* high munition volume YJ-12 and YJ-18 threat to deal with, in addition to EW, the subsurface threat, etc.
lol, you are saying the exact things that some of Chinese commentaries have said. It would be quite foolish not to give defending system different looks and flight profiles to worry about. Outside commentaries also do seem to underestimate Chinese EW capabilities (even though US military have warned how good it has gotten).
 

Andy1974

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Welcome @Patchwork_Chimera. thanks for your valuable insights so far.

Could you tell us how the CEC of the 055 (and other units) are perceived in DC please? Is it also considered a premier ASW platform? And possibly also how they see it developing and in what numbers?

Sorry, it’s a lot of questions and you are doing a lot of answering, which is much appreciated.
 
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