055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

[OppositeDay]

That just means they haven't managed to lower the cost DF-26. This is China we are talking about. If there is one thing it knows, that's keeping cost down. I'd expect the air launched and sea launched hypersonic land attack and anti-ship missiles to see significant cost reductions over the next few years. Again, you don't conduct over 300 hypersonic tests unless you can produce things cheaply.

The key to DF-17's low cost is the design choice to make use of as many off-the-shelf component as possible. You can't bring down the cost of a design that relies on custom military components to DF-17's level. Military production can never reach the scale of civilian production (for China anyway).

Anyway, if a navalized DF-17 can keep DF-17's low cost then an arsenal ship based on Type 071 hull would probably be a better platform for it than Type 055 itself. Missiles of that range will have to rely on an AWACS based or space-based kill chain anyway, so Type 055's sensor suite is not needed. Better for Type 055 to concentrate on its AAW role. A Type-071 based arsenal ship can probably carry 300+ navalized DF-17. Thailand is paying 130 million USD for its Type-071, I think? An arsenal ship version of Type-071 probably won't cost PLAN more than 200 million USD. Adding 700 million USD for the 300+ navalized DF-17s, it's incredible value.

 

[TK3600]

The key to DF-17's low cost is the design choice to make use of as many off-the-shelf component as possible. You can't bring down the cost of a design that relies on custom military components to DF-17's level. Military production can never reach the scale of civilian production (for China anyway).

Anyway, if a navalized DF-17 can keep DF-17's low cost then an arsenal ship based on Type 071 hull would probably be a better platform for it than Type 055 itself. Missiles of that range will have to rely on an AWACS based or space-based kill chain anyway, so Type 055's sensor suite is not needed. Better for Type 055 to concentrate on its AAW role. A Type-071 based arsenal ship can probably carry 300+ navalized DF-17. Thailand is paying 130 million USD for its Type-071, I think? An arsenal ship version of Type-071 probably won't cost PLAN more than 200 million USD. Adding 700 million USD for the 300+ navalized DF-17s, it's incredible value.

What kind of civilian product component would be used in a hypersonic missile.

 

[Andy1974]

I’d just like to point out that ballistic missiles and hypersonics can be their own, and each other’s kill chains. They don’t need to rely on anything else.

China could, and I believe did, launch a satellite on a ballistic trajectory which provided targeting for a DF26 which was launched just after it. Two launches, one looks, one kills, repeat that until all surface ships are gone.

Likewise, they can launch a DF-17 to provide targeting and damage assessment for other armed DF-17s. They can Grid Delete the ocean this way.

EDIT: Also, 055 is the best ASW platform.

 

[AndrewS]

Losing a 052D immediately is IMO a bad trade because the Virginia might still take 1 more ship down with it before going down. Trading a 052D + 054A or 2x 052Ds for a Virginia is not good. 055s contribute tons of strike power but so do 052Ds which have the same VLS. You can position 052Ds more aggressively than 055s, because they are indeed more expendable, but they're not truly expendable, just moreso than a 055. 054As are even more expendable than 052Ds, but they're also not truly expendable.

Because of how shallow the Yellow Sea and East China Seas are, you can use 037 and 056 as minelayers at the edge of the continental shelf and turn the Yellow Sea and East China Sea into a Chinese lake, then set them up as the antisub screen. No need to risk relatively expensive and valuable 052Ds and 054As. In addition, the new conventional mini-sub and existing 039A/B/C can serve as a screen. It's much more worth it to lose a few $100-300 million assets than to risk a $4-500 million frigate or destroyer.

Basically I envision 052Ds and 055s to be a combination of air defense escort (the US way) and basically super long range naval artillery (the Russian way) with ship launched SRBM based hypersonics. They're protected in an "inner" control zone (<100 km) by 054As which intercept close (<100 km) threats like missiles that got through, tactical air and subs. The 054As are spaced maybe 20-30 km away to be forward positioned towards threats. The "middle" control zone (~100-300 km) is managed by 052Ds, 055s, etc organic SAMs and radar in the air and 056s far forward deployed. The "far" control zone (>300 km) is managed by aviation, subs and mines.

I don't see the CSG escorts operating like this, as per the notional CSG diagram.

You have the carrier at the centre of the formation. It costs about $4 Billion with the airwing costing say $5 Billion as well.
Then you have two Type-055 destroyers (approx $1 Billion) as the inner screen providing air defence and as a last ditch ASW screen.
Whilst a Type-055 would normally be a worthwhile target for a submarine, the carrier is far better target.
A submarine likely only has 1 shot before it is swarmed.

Covering this inner screen is an outer screen comprised of a Type-052D ($550 Million) and Type-054A Frigate ($250 Million).
Again, these are unappealing targets for a submarine compared to the Type-055 destroyers or carrier.

And covering these ships are 2 destroyer pickets for incoming aircraft/missiles on the threat axis, and each destroyer is accompanied by a Frigate for ASW.

I don't see Type-054A frigates really being deployed in an air defence role

 

[AndrewS]

A Type-071 based arsenal ship can probably carry 300+ navalized DF-17. Thailand is paying 130 million USD for its Type-071, I think? An arsenal ship version of Type-071 probably won't cost PLAN more than 200 million USD. Adding 700 million USD for the 300+ navalized DF-17s, it's incredible value.

I think that is too much firepower (and risk) to concentrate on a single platform. Plus a Type-071 wouldn't be able to keep up with a SAG containing destroyers.

A stripped down Type-052 or Type-055 variant might be better.

 

[tphuang]

Lol yes it will be. SM-6's ASuW capability is neat and all, but there's vanishingly little sentiment that it's to be a primary, or even an *employed* AShM in actual operation. A munition of this sort, fielded in such small per-vessel quantities, and with pretty sparse availability beyond that, is just so much more useful in its VLS cell than it is when employed against the kind of target that allows a Burke to get within ~120nm and doesn't do something about it.

Hi there, I saw that you liked my earlier post on 055. Just a question. Do you fee like those inside US Navy are appreciating the role of 055 or are they just looking it as a larger Burke or Tico? I've rarely seen anyone get alarmed by the development of 055s.

 

[tphuang]

Lol dude it scares the bejeezus out of us. YJ-18s alone are enough of a threat, but now AShBMs have to get factored in too! Not to mention, this is on top of the triple digit HHQ-9Bs on board, which are of a similar performance class to SM-6. If 5-5-5 ever pops up, I think the cardiologists here in the DC area are gonna have their hands full.

Okay then, here is another question. If a Virginia sub gets in close enough around a carrier group protective ring and gets one good shot where it has a reasonable chance of sinking a 055 (I assume 1 solid heavy torpedo sinks something of 12k t destroyer), but then would most likely put itself under huge pressure of getting hunted down. Does it take that shot? Would USN be willing to trade 1 Virginia class for 1 055? I'm probably making this too simplistic, but just wanted to get your thoughts on this.

 

[5unrise]

Okay then, here is another question. If a Virginia sub gets in close enough around a carrier group protective ring and gets one good shot where it has a reasonable chance of sinking a 055 (I assume 1 solid heavy torpedo sinks something of 12k t destroyer), but then would most likely put itself under huge pressure of getting hunted down. Does it take that shot? Would USN be willing to trade 1 Virginia class for 1 055? I'm probably making this too simplistic, but just wanted to get your thoughts on this.

Whether the USN is willing to trade 1 Virginia for 1 Type 055 is one question (possibly not). But just as importantly: would the sailors and captain on board the Virginia be willing to make that trade? My guess is HELL NO

 

[Zichan]

Lol yes it will be. SM-6's ASuW capability is neat and all, but there's vanishingly little sentiment that it's to be a primary, or even an *employed* AShM in actual operation. A munition of this sort, fielded in such small per-vessel quantities, and with pretty sparse availability beyond that, is just so much more useful in its VLS cell than it is when employed against the kind of target that allows a Burke to get within ~120nm and doesn't do something about it.

You vastly underestimate its range. USNI reported an exercise conducted in 2021 , where a SM-6 struck a land target at a range exceeding 250 miles. SM-6 probably flies a trajectory similar to a ballistic missile against surface targets.

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[tphuang]

Well, you're correct about making this too simplistic, that's for sure haha. There are absolutely situations in which the USN would - as an organization - be willing to trade a VA for a Rehnai; however, it wouldn't just be done arbitrarily. VAs are expensive, full of highly trained (and therefore also expensive) crew, and are - more often than not - able to perform both anti shipping as well as land attack missions with their Mk45s. This isn't something that anyone wants to throw away if it can be helped. Thus, while yes - if an SSN crew were sufficiently motivated to do so, and COMSUBPAC agreed that the matter is of enough significance to offset the costs, there could be that sort of "suicide bomb" attack. However, the far more likely case in 99% of circumstances is that the SSN crew will know that if they fire, they die - and not wanting to die, they just won't suicidally attack a target like that.

So, this maybe another question that's overly simplistic. But let's say you are a commander of Pacific and are facing off a PLAN carrier group that's 500 nm off the cost of China (either SCS or East of Taiwan) and you have an entire CSG at disposal (with more available aircraft sorties than PLAN side) and some air force support of B-52s and maybe a few F-22 or F-35s. And let's say China will probably also have it's fair share of land based aircraft support. How would you be attacking that carrier group?