055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

[joshuatree]

Hmm....seems to really agree with my own depiction of a few days ago:

I don't see why the two smokestacks would simply be a replica of the existing 052C/D merely placed on top of the mid and rear sections of the mock superstructure. It appears with the mock up, the superstructure has been lengthened quite a bit and I think the smokestacks will be incorporated into the superstructure to help reduce RCS and heat signatures.

 

[Jeff Head]

I don't see why the two smokestacks would simply be a replica of the existing 052C/D merely placed on top of the mid and rear sections of the mock superstructure. It appears with the mock up, the superstructure has been lengthened quite a bit and I think the smokestacks will be incorporated into the superstructure to help reduce RCS and heat signatures.

Could very well be. At this point we are just dealing with what we see and making conjectures. They may well add more stealth, both radar and IR characteristics into the exhaust arrangement/structure.

As to the 112 VLS vs 128. Who knows?

They went from 48 in the Type 052C to 64 in the Type 052D. Going from 64 to 112 is a significant improvement, particularly if they are able to quad pack the medium range missiles.

 

[Blitzo]

Could very well be. At this point we are just dealing with what we see and making conjectures. They may well add more stealth, both radar and IR characteristics into the exhaust arrangement/structure.

As to the 112 VLS vs 128. Who knows?

They went from 48 in the Type 052C to 64 in the Type 052D. Going from 64 to 112 is a significant improvement, particularly if they are able to quad pack the medium range missiles.

Of course, the evolution of a navy's surface combatant classes and their VLS cells shouldn't necessary be looked at in a "linear improvement" way, seeing as the USNs first VLS ship was the tico, with ~128, then burke, with 96, and now zumwalt, with 80.
The only proper way to judge whether a ship's armament can be considered decent is by looking at the entirety of the ship (are there any other systems that take the place where VLS could have sat), as well as how other ships of similar weight are armed. So while I think a 12,000 ton ship with 112 VLS won't be excessively underarmed per se, it still would be a slight disappointment considering smaller ships like tico and sejong have 128 cells along with additional slanted AShM launchers. But we will see.

And of course, VLS count isn't the only thing important about a ship: 055s sensors, combat system and datalinking capability will also substantially improve, and that may be able to make up for any small deficiencies in VLS count compared to other ships.

 

[joshuatree]

Of course, the evolution of a navy's surface combatant classes and their VLS cells shouldn't necessary be looked at in a "linear improvement" way, seeing as the USNs first VLS ship was the tico, with ~128, then burke, with 96, and now zumwalt, with 80.
The only proper way to judge whether a ship's armament can be considered decent is by looking at the entirety of the ship (are there any other systems that take the place where VLS could have sat), as well as how other ships of similar weight are armed. So while I think a 12,000 ton ship with 112 VLS won't be excessively underarmed per se, it still would be a slight disappointment considering smaller ships like tico and sejong have 128 cells along with additional slanted AShM launchers. But we will see.

And of course, VLS count isn't the only thing important about a ship: 055s sensors, combat system and datalinking capability will also substantially improve, and that may be able to make up for any small deficiencies in VLS count compared to other ships.

But all of these underarmed speculation is based on rumors of 12,000 ton and above as established fact. If it's not, let's say 10,000 ton, then that doesn't make 112 look that bad of a gap. Does the AB or Sejong have an enclosed hangar for RHIBs? If the 055 retains that which seems to be a standardized feature on the 054As and 052C/Ds, then that will account for ship space. Also, does the mock up indicate the hangar will house two helos?

 

[Blitzo]

But all of these underarmed speculation is based on rumors of 12,000 ton and above as established fact. If it's not, let's say 10,000 ton, then that doesn't make 112 look that bad of a gap. Does the AB or Sejong have an enclosed hangar for RHIBs? If the 055 retains that which seems to be a standardized feature on the 054As and 052C/Ds, then that will account for ship space. Also, does the mock up indicate the hangar will house two helos?

Well we are basing some of our current speculative conclusions on ideas that we establish as more or less concrete.

For instance, at this stage I think the cautious consensus is that the ship will displace 12,000 tons ish, and will feature two helicopter hangars. But everything else is still somewhat in the air. If we are going to make those two points variable as well, then we are back to square zero in terms of speculating how the ship will compare.


Also, RHIB enclosure isn't exactly a very important feature. And yes, sejong does feature enclosed RHIB davits.

 

[Jeff Head]

Of course, the evolution of a navy's surface combatant classes and their VLS cells shouldn't necessary be looked at in a "linear improvement"

The only proper way to judge whether a ship's armament can be considered decent is by looking at the entirety of the ship

So while I think a 12,000 ton ship with 112 VLS won't be excessively underarmed per se, it still would be a slight disappointment considering smaller ships like tico and sejong have 128 cells along with additional slanted AShM launchers.

And of course, VLS count isn't the only thing important about a ship: 055s sensors, combat system and datalinking capability will also substantially improve, and that may be able to make up for any small deficiencies in VLS count compared to other ships.

My point is that I believe 112 will be a very adequate number if they have the varied load outs and the sensors to accurately and effectively guide them

The Se Jong and Ticos are good examples of a 10,000+ displacement vessel taking significant advantage of the space available to maximize armament. And both carry two helos. They also have very varied armaments and very good sensor suites.

The marginally smaller Burke IIAs have 32 less VLS cells, and do not carry the 8 or 16 ASMs. Yet they too are very effective and are greatly respected by all potential adversaries.

I believe exactly the same thing will hold true of the Type 055...heck , of the Type 052D too for that matter.

Very modern and capable vessels. Not to be discounted...whether 10-11,000 tons or 12-14,000 tons.

 

[joshuatree]

Well we are basing some of our current speculative conclusions on ideas that we establish as more or less concrete.

For instance, at this stage I think the cautious consensus is that the ship will displace 12,000 tons ish, and will feature two helicopter hangars. But everything else is still somewhat in the air. If we are going to make those two points variable as well, then we are back to square zero in terms of speculating how the ship will compare.


Also, RHIB enclosure isn't exactly a very important feature. And yes, sejong does feature enclosed RHIB davits.

But this consensus is based on what that is definitive? Consensus based on rumor will still be just that. We just just keep a watch on the development, too soon to be certain one way or another.

I wasn't aware Sejong had RHIB enclosures, that's cool. Can you help point out where that is? Thanks.

 

[Blitzo]

But this consensus is based on what that is definitive? Consensus based on rumor will still be just that. We just just keep a watch on the development, too soon to be certain one way or another.

I wasn't aware Sejong had RHIB enclosures, that's cool. Can you help point out where that is? Thanks.

Sejong's RHIB enclosures are under the front superstructure if memory serves.

As for consensus – with all secretive PLA projects, we can never be too sure of anything, I agree. But if we observers are to facilitate meaningful discussion about topics, we usually defer to a few unspoken agreed upon characteristics for a particular project. That "consensus" about various characteristics, is usually from various credible big shrimps. In this case, the 12,000 ton count has circulated or long enough and been mentioned quite specifically by a few big shrimps, so I personally consider it one of the few things about 055 which are "concrete". That is to say, until we see the final article, this characteristic may still be subject to change, but for the purposes of discussion, it is probably worth trying to fit new information around this existing characteristic, among others. If evidence comes to light that sufficiently disputes this consensus, then it will be changed.

Basically, I think the purpose of consensus is to limit the potential avenues of speculation about what a ship or plane or whatever can end up looking like. Otherwise, discussion will never agree to anything. We need a set of relatively firm ideas to base discussion off of.

 

[Jeff Head]

Sejong's RHIB enclosures are under the front superstructure if memory serves.

Let's put it to rest:

There they are...pics from both sides.

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IMHO, that's a lot of what the Burke flight III should have been. Add the better radars and replace the 127mm with an AGS, compensate with ballast, keep the 128 VLS and 16 ASMs and you have one heck of a Tico cruiser follow on.

But alas, it is not to be so.

 

[joshuatree]

Interesting....I've never seen it opened up and with RHIB being deployed. I always thought they were some sort of vent.