055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

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Deleted member 13312

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I still think they should've put in a second gun CIWS. I don't think there is another ship type with similar displacement that only has a single gun CIWS.
Well personally I think a gun missile combination like the Kashtan or the Pantsir-M will be the ultimate CIWS system available for a ship because it allows for the focusing of 2 different systems simultaneously to bear on a target to cover all possible angles. With ships as small as the Gorshkov frigates being able to sport 2 of these systems on the hangar, the Type 055 has space aplenty for a similar setup.
But the Sejong class does sports a similar CIWS installment as the Type 055. Though it is the RAM missile that is at the front rather than the gatling cannon.
 

Lethe

Captain
and HQ-10 is a better CIWS :)

Well they are complementary systems. HQ-10 has longer range, but also greater minimum range and greater response time. Type 1130 is also (at least theoretically) more flexible, i.e. able to be employed against small sea craft too.

All of which is to say I don't think China is putting Type 1130 on 055, CV-17, etc. as a cost-saving alternative to more HQ-10 launchers, rather the combination of the two systems offers superior coverage.
 
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Deleted member 13312

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and HQ-10 is a better CIWS :)
It is good in its own way, but nothing like the Type 1130. A RAM missile works best in the intermediate zone where the single target is still pulling off the Gs within 40 to 10 KM. After that a gun system shines better with its much more instantaneous reaction rate and rate of fire against multiple targets. Both complements each other, which is why having a different system on both ends can be troublesome.
 
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P.S. HQ-10 is the second CIWS.

I know that. PLAN assets do not have numerical superiority against potential opponents and will certainly face saturation attacks. They should have missile CIWS in the back and two gun CIWS on each side in the front. I know either an existing or planned ship, not PLAN, has this configuration just don't remember which.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
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Guns cannot be jammed. Bullets cannot be "blinded". Gun based CIWS will not be replaced by point defense missiles. They can complement each other but guns are also more versatile like Lethe mentioned. Because there will be close to zero instances of anti-ship missiles closing in through the net of interceptor missiles HHQ-9s and HHQ-16s, from directly ahead, there will be close to zero need for 1130 to fire at 12 o'clock. Most scenarios will have ship facing threat from side direction so both HHQ-10 and Type 1130 will be actively engaging last few missiles making it through the HHQ-9s and HHQ-16s. Type 055 may even be quad packing other smaller types like navalised PL-12s, has PLAN navalised the Tor missile system AKA HQ-17?

Having said that I would still put more trust in HHQ-10 than 1130. Two of the former over two of the latter would be safer in relation to intercepting AShM. With HHQ-10, they would probably salvo fire at each threat which means that system can handle 8 to 12 threats before needing reload (no idea on reload time but should take at least several minutes even with chambers underneath). Guns cannot handle that many threats without barrel melting and running out of ammo. It would be ideal to have two HHQ-10 systems and one 1130 for tricky missiles that even two or three HHQ-10 missiles failed to intercept. Not sure how much ammo would be carried but at 10k rounds/min the 1130 will only have enough ammo for a few bursts like all CIWS. Since space is such a luxury and there's only enough for two CIWS, this combo is best because a destroyer simply cannot forgo a gun. It is just more versatile and reliable at the end of the day despite its limited ability in handling multiple threats from multiple directions.

The reason we don't see PLAN spam their ships with CIWS like Russian Navy, is due to the understanding that the best and only way to properly defend their ships is not from interceptor missiles and CIWS but from attacking and destroying the opposition's aggressors. China does not have numerical superiority against USN, much less USN with allies. Even if PLAN's entire modern destroyer fleet were Type 055s geared out to intercept ordinance, they would all be sunk because there are far more bombs and harpoons the USN can shoot with. Just like how the US claimed to have launched over 100 Tomahawks just at a few targets in Syria, even if S-400 can intercept them all on a 1:1 exchange, the US can just keep sending the cruise missiles and fighters. To stop the attack, you need to sink those Burkes and destroy those airfields.

If PLAN wants to fight conventionally against a technologically and numerically superior opponent (not by that much now and Pacific fleet is about the same effective size but we need to count US airbases in that region), PLAN will need to support and launch attacking forces to knock out those airbases. The carrier battle groups remaining are a hard problem to deal with unless those AShBM work as claimed and Chinese subs are positioned well and get lucky shots off. PLAN and PLAAF will need to deal with the F-18s and F-35s in the air well ahead of the battle groups. PLAN's surface fleet will be supporting the fight in the air by shooting at USN fighters while complementing the Chinese air effort in sinking those battle groups.
 
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ougoah

Brigadier
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Continued (sorry edit time went over 10 minutes) USN subs will be the greatest threat to PLAN surface vessels and land based sites through all of this. spamming decks with CIWS will do little more. So they've probably decided two CIWS with a mix of missiles and gun is optimal offset given expected engagements. This is also all out worst case engagement. Smaller scale stuff and other navies are less demanding because even if they have impressive hardware, they don't have the numbers and just two Type 055s supported by 052C and 052Ds can cover all the above surface, guided anti-ship ordinance in Japanese airforce and navy. F-35s can carry two bombs at one go but F-35 proliferation is something PLAAF will be dealing with as well. Anyone not called USA trying an arms race with PRC today will go bankrupt before their research develop into IOC platforms. Effectiveness of PLAAF and PLAN in guarding regional waters and airspace is the main reason why US wages economic war on China rather than risk actual fighting. Whether that will be as effective as it was on Russia years ago, we'll see. It's certainly more effective at slowing down PLAN build-up. If China can one day somehow woo Japan and South Korea away from solidarity with US and into neutral terriroty, there will be little chance for US to do anything militarily aggressive in this region. Right now US enjoys holding onto the most valuable forward military base in history, Japan. If they support a Japanese rearmament, it would be conventionally devastating for China.
 
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