055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

[Samr]

yes, as I've written on my blog a number of times over the last year or so, it isn't just the size, the armament, the sensors or the overall capability of the ship which is important, but the potential number in which they may be built at which will have both a psychological effect but also more importantly a real tangible strategic effect.

The other important thing about the 055 is what it symbolises about China's ambitions to build carrier task groups, as former Australian Admiral James Goldrick writes:

Herein lies the strategic challenge for the Americans. It is an alternative narrative for the maritime domain that has not been heard since the temporary rise of the Soviet Navy in the 1970s, one that may be heard in future decades in many parts of the world. A China which has long been irritated by the appearance of American carrier groups on the East Asia periphery might well enjoy dispatching a task force to cruise the Caribbean and the coasts of central America. It will certainly deploy its carrier groups to South East Asia, the Indian Ocean and Africa.​

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[Blitzo]

The plans, and they have been approved call for:

6 Se Jongs
4 Atagos
3 Zumwalts

and of course there are :

22 Ticos.

That makes for 35 such vessels.

...and the US will build into the Burke IIIs before they begin decomissioning the Ticos...and ultimately will build a replacement for the Ticos.

I expect the chinese will build 16-20 Type 055s, and that they will go along with something on the order of 24-30 Type 052Ds

But time will tell.

I think Lethe didn't include Ticos in his list for a deliberate reason. In any case, he was only referring to the vessels he listed when he was talking about 055's potential production run, so introducing the number of Ticos into it isn't really relevant

 

[jobjed]

There are 22 Ticos. There will be six Se Jongs, there will be three Zumwalts, and there will be four Atagos. So those right there, which are the active vessels make for 35 vessels. I am not sure at all that the Chinese plan 35 Type 055s.

He didn't say anything about Ticos. Why did you include them in your total?

 

[Blitzo]

Clearly you're not counting because I already accounted for the Sejongs ("3-6"). All of this is just petty nitpicking anyway, since none of us know even roughly how many are going to be built.

Of course I'm counting, but the difference is that I don't see the Sejongs as "3-6" as that would suggest 3 or 6, or perhaps 3 to 6 ships, but rather I consider it to be merely "6" considering the ROKN has committed to build them another run of 3 after their first 3 ships, so I do not consider a total of "6" to be a possibility.

And yes, no one knows how many 055s are going to be built, that isn't in dispute.

 

[Jeff Head]

He didn't say anything about Ticos. Why did you include them in your total?

I was replying to an earlier post about the total numbers of the large escort ships available.

The one I intitally read (I thought at least) included the Ticos).

Either way, they are the same type of ship and should be referred to when considering what the chinese are doing with their Type 055.

That's all.

They are (at least top date) the largest class of these very large, heavily armed, sophisticated sensors and battle management ships, and the principle escort for the carriers or large Amphibs and high value ships.

 

[Jeff Head]

The other important thing about the 055 is what it symbolises about China's ambitions to build carrier task groups, as former Australian Admiral James Goldrick writes:

Herein lies the strategic challenge for the Americans. It is an alternative narrative for the maritime domain that has not been heard since the temporary rise of the Soviet Navy in the 1970s, one that may be heard in future decades in many parts of the world. A China which has long been irritated by the appearance of American carrier groups on the East Asia periphery might well enjoy dispatching a task force to cruise the Caribbean and the coasts of central America. It will certainly deploy its carrier groups to South East Asia, the Indian Ocean and Africa.​

I agree...and think that we will see the PLAN do just that.

The PRC is already establishing SLOCs into the Mid East and Africa. They are already talking deals with South America.

I expect we shall see PLAN carrier groups, escorted by Type 055s go to all of those places.

With CHina's need for safe and reliable SLOCs for their huge appetite of resources, and there huge trade arrangements...it is only natrual and must be expected.

it is the way of the future.

You will see them out there in the bluee water. Perhaps not as many carrier groups as the US, but the Chinese are already developing the ability, through exercises and training...to send those groups out on a regular basis and the world is going to have to get used to it.

I do not fear that.

The US and the Russians/Soviets ultimately worked out relations and operating procedures to avoid stupid, potetnially dangerous mistakes. and I personally do nmot feel that US - Chinese relations ever have to be, or will get to be as strained as the US Soviet relations were during the 50s through the 70s.

So, if the US and the Soviets could avoid the trap...I expect that the US and China can too...despite whatever swagger and politcal statements may be made from time to time.

As I have often said, despite the US saying that it does not like the Chinese SC reclamation islands and bases...there is nothing short of war that they can do about it.

Conversely, despite China indicating it does not like the US FON exercises in the SCS, there is nothing short of war that they can do about that.

And neither sides wants or will benefit from a war over such things.

I believe both sides are smart enough, shrewd enough, and have the diplomatic skills to avoid the trap.

in the mean time though, we are going to get to see some unbelievably GREAT naval technology developed.

 

[Lethe]

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Not impressed by this article, which seems to follow the same crude logic that because 055 is >10,000 tons and has >100 cells it is therefore a cruiser and therefore analogous to USN's Ticonderoga class.

I know we've been through this argument before, but this is such nonsense. Start with the fact that the only reason Ticonderoga is labelled a "cruiser" in the first place is because US Congresscritters wanted more "cruisers" to match the scary Soviet cruisers, and USN obliged by reclassifying some upcoming destroyers as cruisers. Add to this the fact that Ticonderoga is old. By the time the first 055 is commissioned in 2019, the first half-dozen Ticos will have reached retirement age (yes, I know the non-VLS units were retired early, but that's the point -- even if they hadn't been, the class would've started to retire by now anyway). The idea that the characteristics and labels of these 1980s warships, built on a 1970s hull, can serve as a useful basis of comparison for a clean-sheet design in 2020, is just ludicrous. The chronological gap between Ticonderoga and 055 is larger than the gap between the Essex class carriers of WW2 and the Nimitz-class.

And the silliest thing is that this evolution of warship design (in part towards bigger hulls with lower crewing requirements) is plainly apparent even within USN itself. The Arleigh Burke Flight III is larger than a Tico, yet is apparently still a destroyer. It is larger than a Tico, yet not only carries fewer missiles, but also lacks the former's command spaces and second 5" gun. One can only conclude, using the crude logic favoured by those who think that 055 is some special "cruiser
type, that the US Navy has simply forgotten how to build ships and has actually regressed since 1983. In fact, you have to wonder why USN doesn't go back to building what is so obviously a superior design that manages to pack more missiles and more guns into a smaller ship with room left over for command amenities.

Alternatively, one can acknowledge the blindingly obvious -- that warships are getting bigger across the board -- and therefore the corollary: that 055 is not some special "cruiser" type, but simply what a clean-sheet large surface combatant looks like in the 21st century. 055 is to 2020 what Arleigh Burke was to 1990.

 

[Blitzo]

Not impressed by this article, which seems to follow the same crude logic that because 055 is >10,000 tons and has >100 cells it is therefore a cruiser and therefore analogous to USN's Ticonderoga class.

I know we've been through this argument before, but this is such nonsense. Start with the fact that the only reason Ticonderoga is labelled a "cruiser" in the first place is because US Congresscritters wanted more "cruisers" to match the scary Soviet cruisers, and USN obliged by reclassifying some upcoming destroyers as cruisers. Add to this the fact that Ticonderoga is old. By the time the first 055 is commissioned in 2019, the first half-dozen Ticos will have reached retirement age (yes, I know the non-VLS units were retired early, but that's the point -- even if they hadn't been, the class would've started to retire by now anyway). The idea that the characteristics and labels of these 1980s warships, built on a 1970s hull, can serve as a useful basis of comparison for a clean-sheet design in 2020, is just ludicrous. The chronological gap between Ticonderoga and 055 is larger than the gap between the Essex class carriers of WW2 and the Nimitz-class.

And the silliest thing is that this evolution of warship design (in part towards bigger hulls with lower crewing requirements) is plainly apparent even within USN itself. The Arleigh Burke Flight III is larger than a Tico, yet is apparently still a destroyer. It is larger than a Tico, yet not only carries fewer missiles, but also lacks the former's command spaces and second 5" gun. One can only conclude, using the crude logic favoured by those who think that 055 is some special "cruiser
type, that the US Navy has simply forgotten how to build ships and has actually regressed since 1983. In fact, you have to wonder why USN doesn't go back to building what is so obviously a superior design that manages to pack more missiles and more guns into a smaller ship with room left over for command amenities.

Alternatively, one can acknowledge the blindingly obvious -- that warships are getting bigger across the board -- and therefore the corollary: that 055 is not some special "cruiser" type, but simply what a clean-sheet large surface combatant looks like in the 21st century. 055 is to 2020 what Arleigh Burke was to 1990.

tbh I think the article doesn't really do much of an analysis of what the 055 actually is or its capabilities or even dimensions... instead it tries to use the 055 as a way for talking about China's overall evolving power projection capabilities and/or potential future naval doctrine. For such a purpose, it doesn't really matter that the 055 is actually closer to 13,000 tons or not, nor is it that important that he's using an increasingly antiquated and flawed displacement based method of trying to categorize surface combatants into roles.

In that sense, it does an okay job but it's not exactly telling us experienced PLA watchers anything that we didn't already know or could start to infer five or even ten years ago.

 

[sanblvd]

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Ignore the headline, but this part is interesting

"In addition, the transmission and receipt units of 055’s radar are made of the newest materials of gallium nitride while Flight III’s application of such new material still remains at the test proof stage. Moreover, 055’s advanced integrated mast facilitates efficient integrated radio frequency management, avoidance of electrical and magnetic incompatibility, reduction of radiation characteristic and better stealth function."

 

[jobjed]

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Ignore the headline, but this part is interesting

"In addition, the transmission and receipt units of 055’s radar are made of the newest materials of gallium nitride while Flight III’s application of such new material still remains at the test proof stage. Moreover, 055’s advanced integrated mast facilitates efficient integrated radio frequency management, avoidance of electrical and magnetic incompatibility, reduction of radiation characteristic and better stealth function."

That website has a very heavy pro-China bias, well inside fanboi territory. Take everything on that site with a grain of salt.