055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

[FORBIN]

Forbin ... I really want to read and understand your posts as you are one of the experts ...... but I am really totally confused ... ... would you like to try write in French and translate it to English by Google? in most cases it would work good enough ... no offence Forbin

Others understand your a bit difficult but thanks for compliments rare but mainly very passionate more than a expert and my " Mandarin " is not perfect

 

[FORBIN]

If I am not misunderstanding, you are saying that PLAN is building this many of 055s at the expense of having less 054As?

I think it is more likely that 054A is close to end of production. There have been talks of a new frigate class to succeed 054A soon. The 054A is less than ideal for CV escort mainly due to its lack of engine power for higher max speed.

I am not sure actually. I am still digesting the rumor that PLAN placed the order for 8 055s at once in the first batch, as if they had been given a blank cheque.

Again me
I see also to dafeng cao 8 it is not a problem for know... ! but i see born in 1991 normaly true remains possible infos from others... despite is seems a bit young... reliable in general ?

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[delft]

Forbin ... I really want to read and understand your posts as you are one of the experts ...... but I am really totally confused ... ... would you like to try write in French and translate it to English by Google? in most cases it would work good enough ... no offence Forbin

Better give it in both languages. I don't trust Google

 

[Iron Man]

The eyebrow raising thing is about the nature of 055's production rate/pace/manner, and that I interpreted your statements to suggest the nature of 055's production is similar to 052Ds.

So now it's just intent and scope, not capability of the 055 as well? Because that's not what you said originally, so you must have changed your mind since your post where you said something else.

Yes, advancement in capability as warfighting, let's go with that.

And yes, the underlined part is what I mean.

And yes, as I wrote in a previous post when I used a similar argument -- of course this is all speculation. I'm not saying that 055 will necessarily have those advancements in datalink, software, combat system etc.
The reason I've been harping on about those specific advancements is in response to your post #2646 where you said:
"IF they are present on the 055, yes. More advanced software for what? Controlling the same exact missiles, guns, CIWS, countermeasures, and radar? New datalinks? You know that datalinking isn't an individual ship capability, right? Something like a Chinese Link 16 is a fleet-wide capability, and something the 052D would be expected to have as well. More consoles is meh. Flag bridge is meh. Bigger CIC is meh. It's all just more, not necessarily more advanced."

... which, in the context of the discussion made it sound to me like you believed that advancements in datalinks, software, consoles, flag bridge, CIC etc would only produce "meh" advancements in capability/warfighting. This entire subset of the discussion has been me trying to make the case that advancements in those areas could definitely provide very consequential advancements in warfighting.

What I am not arguing, is that 055 will definitely have those advancements.

Of course, now that the previous part of the discussion has been settled I understand that you probably meant "meh" as in terms of advancements of design/construction, in which case I would mostly agree that those advancements I listed are less important in terms of the design/construction of 055 (or indeed any other ship in its situation).
(The reason why this discussion has been a bit arduous is because it's been difficult to define what we meant by "advancements of capability" in terms of design/construction and vs warfighting. The only part that has been well defined is advancements of computing/modelling)

These paragraphs represent your pure speculation that a 052D-sized 055 would still represent some kind of significant advancement in warfighting capability. As long you acknowledge that you have absolutely no evidence for any of this, then we can conclude this area.

This part is what makes me believe that, it's from your last post where you quote yourself and I'm not sure which original post it was:
"whatever technology allowed the 052D to be produced in large numbers will allow the 055 to be produced in large numbers, no need for any "fruition" of new technologies."

This sentence conveys to me a sense that you believe the "large numbers" that 052D was produced in and the "large numbers" that 055 is being produced in are equal or similar, and I'm saying that they are not equal or similar -- or at the very least that merely saying 055 and 052D are both "produced in large numbers" is insufficiently representative of the details that are important for the discussion and the original statement that subotai made.

But if I'm misinterpreting your statement then I'm of course open to clarification.

You are definitely misinterpreting my statement. Would you somehow disagree that both the 055 and 052D are being produced in large numbers? Unless you somehow believe that the 055 is going to be limited to just 3 hulls and don't believe the reports suggesting 8 055 hulls in the first batch (FIRST batch, no less), then I don't see how you could possibly disagree with my assertion that both the 052D and 055 are being produced in large numbers. What is different between the two is RATE, which is what I meant and presume you mean by "pace/manner", as in three hulls being nearly simultaneously constructed. I presume you understand the difference between number and rate. If you do, then why is this an issue for you? We are in the end talking about technologies that enable the design of the 055. The production RATE of either the 052D or the 055 have less to do with these design-enabling technologies and more to do with the shipbuilding capacities of the various shipyards in which they are being built as well as the will and intent of the PLAN.

 

[Lethe]

This discussion might be slightly more polite than the recent one about Type 726, but I don't think it is any more productive.

 

[Blitzo]

This discussion might be slightly more polite than the recent one about Type 726, but I don't think it is any more productive.

I have a feeling it'll be coming to a close very quickly so please bear with it for a few posts more

 

[Blitzo]

So now it's just intent and scope, not capability of the 055 as well? Because that's not what you said originally, so you must have changed your mind since your post where you said something else.

Honestly I have no idea what this part of the discussion even relates to now, so I'm just going to drop it.

These paragraphs represent your pure speculation that a 052D-sized 055 would still represent some kind of significant advancement in warfighting capability. As long you acknowledge that you have absolutely no evidence for any of this, then we can conclude this area.

No, this speculation on my part is meant to demonstrate my belief that just because two differing warship classes may have similar subsystems like radars, weapons, propulsion, etc, does not mean that advancements in other arenas (software, datalinks, CMS, command/control etc) are unsubstantial or "meh" advancements in warfighting.

If you dislike my speculation about 052D and 055, then for the sake of discussion we can take two hypothetical related warship classes with similar parameters to what we've been discussing.
My conclusion for those two hypothetical warships is the same -- which is that even if both warships have same types of radars, weapons, propulsion etc, if one had advancements in software, datalinks, combat management system, command etc, then those additional advancements constitute an additional degree of warfighting capability that is not "meh".

You are definitely misinterpreting my statement. Would you somehow disagree that both the 055 and 052D are being produced in large numbers? Unless you somehow believe that the 055 is going to be limited to just 3 hulls and don't believe the reports suggesting 8 055 hulls in the first batch (FIRST batch, no less), then I don't see how you could possibly disagree with my assertion that both the 052D and 055 are being produced in large numbers. What is different between the two is RATE, which is what I meant and presume you mean by "pace/manner", as in three hulls being nearly simultaneously constructed. I presume you understand the difference between number and rate. If you do, then why is this an issue for you?

I interpreted your statement "being produced in large numbers" to mean a snapshot, or a state at which they were both being produced in large numbers, and given the state of 055's production so far as we know it (at the very beginning of its first batch) it would be unwise to speculate about 055's overall production run.
So yes, I interpreted it as meaning a "rate", in this case a rate of 055's production as it is now when the first hull has yet to be launched, vs the rate of 052D's production as it was when its first hull has yet to be launched.

Clearly that's not what you meant, although I think given the context of subotai's post and especially his clarification I think it was a reasonable interpretation for me to make, but okay, at least this is cleared up.

We are in the end talking about technologies that enable the design of the 055. The production RATE of either the 052D or the 055 have less to do with these design-enabling technologies and more to do with the shipbuilding capacities of the various shipyards in which they are being built as well as the will and intent of the PLAN.

I disagree with the underlined part, because I don't think I've made myself clear yet.

I believe that the initial production rate of a ship class is very much related to the degree of advancement of computing/modelling they have to be able to have a high confidence in their design and simulation capabilities (the topic of subotai's posts), allowing them to produce a larger number of ships immediately straight off the bat without having to produce them initially slower or in smaller batches first for certain real world testing or verification before leaping into a faster rate of true mass production.
That is why in my last posts I've emphasized comparing 052D's state of production when the first ship had yet to be launched compared to 055's state of production as it is right now when its first ship had yet to be launched.
The overall production rate of a ship over its entire production rate, is a separate thing, and I think you may be interpreting my focus on the rate of production as an overall production rate instead of initial production rate.

Btw, as I've written before, I do believe that the the industry when it produced 052D had access to same or similar simulation and modelling advancements that 055 had/have right now, and that the 052D likely benefitted from those simulation and modelling advancements as well.
However, being a derivative design based on a proven hull, and given 052D's lower initial production rate at the beginning of its production, I do not think the 052D's initial production rate is as compelling of evidence for the advancements in computing/design/simulation/modelling etc that subotai mentioned, as 055's initial production rate is.

 

[Iron Man]

No, this speculation on my part is meant to demonstrate my belief that just because two differing warship classes may have similar subsystems like radars, weapons, propulsion, etc, does not mean that advancements in other arenas (software, datalinks, CMS, command/control etc) are unsubstantial or "meh" advancements in warfighting.

If you dislike my speculation about 052D and 055, then for the sake of discussion we can take two hypothetical related warship classes with similar parameters to what we've been discussing.
My conclusion for those two hypothetical warships is the same -- which is that even if both warships have same types of radars, weapons, propulsion etc, if one had advancements in software, datalinks, combat management system, command etc, then those additional advancements constitute an additional degree of warfighting capability that is not "meh".

Depends on to what degree these advances represent actual significant improvements over those present in the 052D AND how many of these hypothetical advances are actually present on the 055 if any. Since you don't know the answer to either of these questions, you don't know if this advanced package whatever it may be if any at all, represents any kind of non-meh improvement in warfighting capability.

I interpreted your statement "being produced in large numbers" to mean a snapshot, or a state at which they were both being produced in large numbers, and given the state of 055's production so far as we know it (at the very beginning of its first batch) it would be unwise to speculate about 055's overall production run.
So yes, I interpreted it as meaning a "rate", in this case a rate of 055's production as it is now when the first hull has yet to be launched, vs the rate of 052D's production as it was when its first hull has yet to be launched.

Clearly that's not what you meant, although I think given the context of subotai's post and especially his clarification I think it was a reasonable interpretation for me to make, but okay, at least this is cleared up.

Yes, numbers =/= rate. Per my read of this thread, most of us, I guess not you, believe that what we are witnessing here represents a large number in addition to a high rate.

I disagree with the underlined part, because I don't think I've made myself clear yet.

I believe that the initial production rate of a ship class is very much related to the degree of advancement of computing/modelling they have to be able to have a high confidence in their design and simulation capabilities (the topic of subotai's posts), allowing them to produce a larger number of ships immediately straight off the bat without having to produce them initially slower or in smaller batches first for certain real world testing or verification before leaping into a faster rate of true mass production.
That is why in my last posts I've emphasized comparing 052D's state of production when the first ship had yet to be launched compared to 055's state of production as it is right now when its first ship had yet to be launched.
The overall production rate of a ship over its entire production rate, is a separate thing, and I think you may be interpreting my focus on the rate of production as an overall production rate instead of initial production rate.

Btw, as I've written before, I do believe that the the industry when it produced 052D had access to same or similar simulation and modelling advancements that 055 had/have right now, and that the 052D likely benefitted from those simulation and modelling advancements as well.
However, being a derivative design based on a proven hull, and given 052D's lower initial production rate at the beginning of its production, I do not think the 052D's initial production rate is as compelling of evidence for the advancements in computing/design/simulation/modelling etc that subotai mentioned, as 055's initial production rate is.

We will just have to disagree on this point. For me the initial rate of production of the 055 is related to the PLAN's desire and intent, and the effects of the advancements in computer modeling, etc., surely helped the 055 achieve this rate, though this is not to say that the 052D could not have achieved the same rate of production, but rather because the PLAN at that time did not have the desire to produce the 052D as fast as it has the desire to produce the 055 now. In other words the 052D had access to the same rapid production enabling technologies as the 055 does now, mainly because the time between the debut of the 052D and the 055 does not seem to me to have permitted any significant new developments in design and/or production technologies. If you can point to any such evidence of new technologies in the interim between the 052D and the 055, then maybe you have a case. Otherwise I don't think you do.

 

[vincent]

You two get a room!

 

[Blitzo]

You two get a room!

Are you going to edit and remove this post as well?