055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

[delft]

There is also a political factor: how did the Central Military Commission judge the political developments in East Asia and, even more, in Washington DC when it authorized this initial production rate for 055. That happened two years or more ago and we just don't know.

 

[Blitzo]

Depends on to what degree these advances represent actual significant improvements over those present in the 052D AND how many of these hypothetical advances are actually present on the 055 if any. Since you don't know the answer to either of these questions, you don't know if this advanced package whatever it may be if any at all, represents any kind of non-meh improvement in warfighting capability.

Again, you are missing the point.

I am not saying that 055 will have XYZ advancements in those subsystems I mentioned.

I am rather saying that 055 (or any other ship) with XYZ advancements in those subsystems I mentioned can have consequential increases of that ship or any other hypothetical ship's warfighting capability.

I refer to my last post, where I deliberately said to ignore 055 and 052D and to consider hypothetical warships for the sake of illustrating my point: "If you dislike my speculation about 052D and 055, then for the sake of discussion we can take two hypothetical related warship classes with similar parameters to what we've been discussing.
My conclusion for those two hypothetical warships is the same -- which is that even if both warships have same types of radars, weapons, propulsion etc, if one had advancements in software, datalinks, combat management system, command etc, then those additional advancements constitute an additional degree of warfighting capability that is not "meh"."

This entire vein of discussion has been my response to your post a few pages back which made it sound like advancements in domains of software, combat management, datalinking, command/control/flag bridge were inconsequential or "meh" for a ship's warfighting capability, in that case, the warfighting capability of 055.
The purpose of my argument is to show that is not necessarily the case, and that advancements in those areas for a new ship can have consequential (or non-"meh") advancements in any ship's warfighting capability (including 055) even if the weapons/radar/propulsion subsystems were still the same.


Again, let me repeat, I AM NOT saying that 055 will have those advancements.
Clearly neither of us know what advancements if any 055 will have in those domains that I mentioned, which is sort of the point of the original argument this descended from -- I was seeking to make the logical case that despite 055 not having advancements in weapons/radar/propulsion subsystems relative to 052D generally speaking, there are still significant advancements that could potentially be made in software, combat management, datalinking, command/control in 055 which produce a "non-meh" advancement of its overall warfighting capability relative to 052D. At this stage whether 055 actually ends up fielding those advancements or not is irrelevant because I am dealing entirely in hypotheticals and logic.

So long as you agree that such a prospect is logically plausible, then I have no further disagreement with you on this matter.

Yes, numbers =/= rate. Per my read of this thread, most of us, I guess not you, believe that what we are witnessing here represents a large number in addition to a high rate.

No, I believe that 055 is likely going to be produced in a large number as well.

However, I believe that the relevant part of the "produced in large numbers" statement in regards to 055 and 052D is referring to their high initial production rate as it relates to the factor of advancements in modelling/computing/simulation/design etc. The next and bigger part of my post deals with this in I think a much more clear way than we've been able to dissect so far.

We will just have to disagree on this point. For me the initial rate of production of the 055 is related to the PLAN's desire and intent, and the effects of the advancements in computer modeling, etc., surely helped the 055 achieve this rate, though this is not to say that the 052D could not have achieved the same rate of production, but rather because the PLAN at that time did not have the desire to produce the 052D as fast as it has the desire to produce the 055 now. In other words the 052D had access to the same rapid production enabling technologies as the 055 does now, mainly because the time between the debut of the 052D and the 055 does not seem to me to have permitted any significant new developments in design and/or production technologies. If you can point to any such evidence of new technologies in the interim between the 052D and the 055, then maybe you have a case. Otherwise I don't think you do.

In my last post and in a previous post I explicitly said that I believed 052D had access to the same or similar advancements in modelling/computing/design/simulation etc as 055 did/does.
See, one of the last paragraphs of my previous post: "Btw, as I've written before, I do believe that the the industry when it produced 052D had access to same or similar simulation and modelling advancements that 055 had/have right now, and that the 052D likely benefitted from those simulation and modelling advancements as well."

I fully agree with you on this and this has never been the subject of contention for me.

Let me repeat -- I am not saying that between the production of 052D and 055 that any new great advances have been made. I fully agree that the production of 052D and 055 likely had access to similar levels of design/computing/modelling/simulation etc.



What has been a subject of contention for me, was the assertion that the manner of production (aka high rate of initial production of 055 + the fact that it is a new clean sheet hull design), relative to the manner of production of 052D at the time, is a far more compelling demonstration that such advances had been made, and this is basically exactly what I wrote in reply #2682
Going back to subotai's posts, the meaning I interpret is that the production of 055 in the manner that we see (rate+new clean sheet hull design) has been enabled by those advances.... however he does not say that those advances or similar advances were not present during the early production of 052D, and as he alludes to in his follow up post, it is likely related to 052D being a derivative of a proven hull and I suspect also related to the difference in 052Ds lower rate of initial production relative to 055's current rate of initial production.


Or, in a summary sentence: yes, 052D likely had access to the same or similar advances in computing/modelling/simulation/design as 055, but considering 055 is a new clean sheet hull and as having a higher rate of initial production (both relative to 052D), means 055 is a far more compelling example for such advances having taken place. This does not preclude the likely possibility that such advances also greatly benefitted 052D's design/simulation/computing/modelling process as well as its production. It is merely to say that 055's manner of production demonstrates those advances likely took place more convincingly than 052D's manner of production (or indeed arguably the manner of production of any other class of major warship in China's recent past) did.


After all this discussion, I think this is as clear and simple as I can distill my position down to, and I think it can be traced back quite consistently back the last five or six pages on the topic.

 

[Iron Man]

Again, you are missing the point.

I am not saying that 055 will have XYZ advancements in those subsystems I mentioned.

I am rather saying that 055 (or any other ship) with XYZ advancements in those subsystems I mentioned can have consequential increases of that ship or any other hypothetical ship's warfighting capability.

This entire vein of discussion has been my response to your post a few pages back which made it sound like advancements in domains of software, combat management, datalinking, command/control/flag bridge were inconsequential or "meh" for a ship's warfighting capability, in that case, the warfighting capability of 055.
The purpose of my argument is to show that is not necessarily the case, and that advancements in those areas for a new ship can have consequential (or non-"meh") advancements in any ship's warfighting capability (including 055) even if the weapons/radar/propulsion subsystems were still the same.

Again, let me repeat, I AM NOT saying that 055 will have those advancements.

Again, YOU are missing the point. Which of these advancements are you "hypothesizing"? How advanced are these advancements over the 052D version? Yes, if "XYZ" advancements are on the 055, then MAYBE together they will represent a significant increase in warfighting capability; then again maybe not. But since you don't know how advanced these systems are and how many advancements are possibly alleged to be in the 055, you can't even vaguely concretize on even a theoretical level whether and how much more advanced a theoretical 055 would be if at all compared to a 052D. In other words you don't even know what COULD be on the 055 and how much more advanced any of your theoretical subsystems WOULD be compared to those on the 052D. Bottom line is you don't even have a basis for comparison, so how could you possibly come to the conclusion that if one, two or twenty "more advanced" systems are on the 055, that this would represent a significant increase in warfighting capability? The answer of course is that you simply don't.

What has been a subject of contention for me, was the assertion that the manner of production (aka high rate of initial production of 055 + the fact that it is a new clean sheet hull design), relative to the manner of production of 052D at the time, is a far more compelling demonstration that such advances had been made, and this is basically exactly what I wrote in reply #2682
Going back to subotai's posts, the meaning I interpret is that the production of 055 in the manner that we see (rate+new clean sheet hull design) has been enabled by those advances.... however he does not say that those advances or similar advances were not present during the early production of 052D, and as he alludes to in his follow up post, it is likely related to 052D being a derivative of a proven hull and I suspect also related to the difference in 052Ds lower rate of initial production relative to 055's current rate of initial production.

"Far more compelling demonstration that such advances had been made"??? What's the blooming point of even arguing something so entirely inconsequential, if that is in fact what you were arguing this whole time? The whole point that I wanted to make was that the 055's rapid production was not an indication of advancing design and production technologies due to the relatively non-revolutionary nature of the 055 design compared to the 052D as well as the relatively short period of time between the appearance of these two designs, and your response this whole time was that the 055's rapid production is a more compelling demonstration of existing design/production technologies? How would that be any kind of consequential response to what I said? I just don't even understand your train of thought anymore.

 

[latenlazy]

Again, YOU are missing the point. Which of these advancements are you "hypothesizing"? How advanced are these advancements over the 052D version? Yes, if "XYZ" advancements are on the 055, then MAYBE together they will represent a significant increase in warfighting capability; then again maybe not. But since you don't know how advanced these systems are and how many advancements are possibly alleged to be in the 055, you can't even vaguely concretize on even a theoretical level whether and how much more advanced a theoretical 055 would be if at all compared to a 052D. In other words you don't even know what COULD be on the 055 and how much more advanced any of your theoretical subsystems WOULD be compared to those on the 052D. Bottom line is you don't even have a basis for comparison, so how could you possibly come to the conclusion that if one, two or twenty "more advanced" systems are on the 055, that this would represent a significant increase in warfighting capability? The answer of course is that you simply don't.


"Far more compelling demonstration that such advances had been made"??? What's the blooming point of even arguing something so entirely inconsequential, if that is in fact what you were arguing this whole time? The whole point that I wanted to make was that the 055's rapid production was not an indication of advancing design and production technologies due to the relatively non-revolutionary nature of the 055 design compared to the 052D as well as the relatively short period of time between the appearance of these two designs, and your response this whole time was that the 055's rapid production is a more compelling demonstration of existing design/production technologies? How would that be any kind of consequential response to what I said? I just don't even understand your train of thought anymore.

Isn't it a bit contradictory to insist that because we don't have details on the Type 055 we don't know if it had more advanced systems, then suggest that we can confidently assume the Type 055 isn't more advanced than Type 052D? The operating logic for the former also applies to the latter, since we also don't have any indication that the systems the Type 055 will use are straight analogs to the ones used in the Type 052D.

Either way, it seems rather evident that more advanced systems or no, just the increase of size and payload alone should probably constitute as "increased war fighting", shouldn't it? Furthermore, owing to the mast we can observe in the Wuhan mockup, perhaps we should also have some confidence presuming that at least some of its key systems will at least be different, if not better, given that they don't look much like what's installed on the Type 052D.

 

[Iron Man]

Isn't it a bit contradictory to insist that because we don't have details on the Type 055 we don't know if it had more advanced systems, then suggest that we can confidently assume the Type 055 isn't more advanced than Type 052D? The operating logic for the former also applies to the latter, since we also don't have any indication that the systems the Type 055 will use are straight analogs to the ones used in the Type 052D.

Nope, not at all contradictory. My conclusions are based solely on externally visible and known to be likely to exist features of the 055: the universal VLS modules, the radar, the CIWS/HHQ-10, the main gun, the countermeasures, etc., whereas Bltizo's conjectures are about internal subsystems and software and are purely hypothetical and undemonstrable externally. I wouldn't even call them straight "analogs", whatever you mean by this. I would just call them "the same exact thing until proven otherwise", because they look exactly the same as the same systems found on the 052D. Which means the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that they look the same but are in fact different/better, not on me to demonstrate that they are the same.

Either way, it seems rather evident that more advanced systems or no, just the increase of size and payload alone should probably constitute as "increased war fighting", shouldn't it? Furthermore, owing to the mast we can observe in the Wuhan mockup, perhaps we should also have some confidence presuming that at least some of its key systems will at least be different, if not better, given that they don't look much like what's installed on the Type 052D.

You should have read more closely because this exact point about increased size and payload has already been addressed. The ESM mast has also already been addressed. We have SOME confidence presuming that at least ONE of its systems (ESM) will at least be different, if not better.

 

[Mirabo]

Quite the heated discussion up there, gents. Let's put our differences to rest momentarily, for I come bearing gifts.

I don't usually post speculative CG photos, but I feel that this one is worth sharing because it originated from Haohan Defence, which is one of our more reliable sources for visual material, including photographs.

The post also comes with estimated specifications, but bear in mind that this is all completely imaginary, made up by the CG creator! I just thought it'd be interesting to share:

"中国海军055型大型导弹驱逐舰，舰长182.6米，舰宽20.9米，吃水7.2米，满载排水量13200吨，112单元通用垂直发射系统，H/PJ-38型单管130毫米舰炮（被新型电磁炮替代的可能也不小），红旗10近程防空导弹系统，1130近程防御火炮系统，两座三联装反潜鱼雷发射器，4座726-4多功能干扰弹发射系统，双波段相控阵雷达，一体化桅杆及综合射频系统，燃燃联合动力系统，双独立直升机库，舰壳声呐系统，主被动拖曳声呐系统。"

TRANSLATED:

"The Chinese Navy's 055 Large Guided Missile Destroyer, length 182.6 m, beam 20.9 m, draft 7.2 m, full load displacement 13,200 tons, 112 VLS cells, H/PJ-38 130 mm gun (may be upgraded with electromagnetic railgun [?!?!?!]), HQ-10 short-range SAM, Type 1130 CIWS, 2x triple ASW torpedo launchers, 4x Type 726-4 multipurpose decoy rocket launcher systems, dual band radar, integrated mast and fire control system, Combined Gas and Gas (COGAG) propulsion, two separate helicopter hangars, hull-mounted sonar and towed sonar array."

As with all speculation, take these specs with a grain of salt, although the majority of these specs seem reasonable enough. What surprised me was the suggestion that the 055 may be equipped with a railgun in the future, which is unimaginable today. However, given that the PLAN had several major breakthroughs in EM technology in recent years, it's not completely out of the question either.

Again, bear in mind that these specs are the result of the CG creator's imagination, but I think this could give us some discussion fuel for the next couple of days.

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[Insignius]

I dont like the current consensus cited everywhere that the 055 has only 112 cells.

Reminds me of the old days, when people were almost sure that the 052D has only 48 cells yet again, because the mid-ship complex seemed to be too small to house more than sixteen missiles.

 

[Iron Man]

Quite the heated discussion up there, gents. Let's put our differences to rest momentarily, for I come bearing gifts.

I don't usually post speculative CG photos, but I feel that this one is worth sharing because it originated from Haohan Defence, which is one of our more reliable sources for visual material, including photographs.

The post also comes with estimated specifications, but bear in mind that this is all completely imaginary, made up by the CG creator! I just thought it'd be interesting to share:

"中国海军055型大型导弹驱逐舰，舰长182.6米，舰宽20.9米，吃水7.2米，满载排水量13200吨，112单元通用垂直发射系统，H/PJ-38型单管130毫米舰炮（被新型电磁炮替代的可能也不小），红旗10近程防空导弹系统，1130近程防御火炮系统，两座三联装反潜鱼雷发射器，4座726-4多功能干扰弹发射系统，双波段相控阵雷达，一体化桅杆及综合射频系统，燃燃联合动力系统，双独立直升机库，舰壳声呐系统，主被动拖曳声呐系统。"

TRANSLATED:

"The Chinese Navy's 055 Large Guided Missile Destroyer, length 182.6 m, beam 20.9 m, draft 7.2 m, full load displacement 13,200 tons, 112 VLS cells, H/PJ-38 130 mm gun (may be upgraded with electromagnetic railgun [?!?!?!]), HQ-10 short-range SAM, Type 1130 CIWS, 2x triple ASW torpedo launchers, 4x Type 726-4 multipurpose decoy rocket launcher systems, dual band radar, integrated mast and fire control system, Combined Gas and Gas (COGAG) propulsion, two separate helicopter hangars, hull-mounted sonar and towed sonar array."

As with all speculation, take these specs with a grain of salt, although the majority of these specs seem reasonable enough. What surprised me was the suggestion that the 055 may be equipped with a railgun in the future, which is unimaginable today. However, given that the PLAN had several major breakthroughs in EM technology in recent years, it's not completely out of the question either.

Again, bear in mind that these specs are the result of the CG creator's imagination, but I think this could give us some discussion fuel for the next couple of days.

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Just on superficial examination this does not present anything new, except for its mention of the railgun of course, and also this part about "integrated mast and fire control system". This quote seems to either suggest the poster has some inside information about the new radar(s) on board the 055 or he just doesn't have the first clue what he is talking about. We now know that the reason the 052D doesn't have a separate FCS is because the Type 346A is a dual S/C-band radar, of which the S-band portion performs limited VSR, focused search and track and midcourse guidance, and the C-band portion provides terminal fire control and limited track and possibly horizon search. If the 055 uses the same radar (and by external appearances it does), then there is no need for a separate "fire control system". So either this poster is suggesting that an entirely new fixed panel AESA system is being used by the 055, or he is talking out of something other than his mouth.

I dont like the current consensus cited everywhere that the 055 has only 112 cells.

Reminds me of the old days, when people were almost sure that the 052D has only 48 cells yet again, because the mid-ship complex seemed to be too small to house more than sixteen missiles.

Yes, I think 112 is very unlikely at this point. There is no reason not to rotate the rear bank of VLS cells 90 degrees to achieve a 64 cell capacity module in the back.

 

[Mirabo]

So either this poster is suggesting that an entirely new fixed panel AESA system is being used by the 055, or he is talking out of something other than his mouth.

The poster himself acknowledged that the specs are entirely made-up and speculative. Unless, of course, he's not giving us the truth.

I dont like the current consensus cited everywhere that the 055 has only 112 cells.

Reminds me of the old days, when people were almost sure that the 052D has only 48 cells yet again, because the mid-ship complex seemed to be too small to house more than sixteen missiles.

I agree. I don't see why they can't make the aft superstructure a bit smaller, or lengthen the hull by a couple of meters, to make room for an extra row of VLS cells.

However! Unlike American destroyers, the Type 055 could possibly be fitted with launchers for supersonic YJ-12A anti-ship cruise missiles as well, which was revealed during last year's Zhuhai Airshow. This eliminates the need for 'too many' VLS cells. Arguably, while 128 cells is an acceptable number for a warship that focuses entirely around subsonic missiles like the Harpoon and the Tomahawk, supersonic missiles like the YJ-12 are meant to deliver devastating precision strikes without having to resort to missile swarming. In this case, 112 VLS cells would be more than sufficient.

 

[Insignius]

Well, why not both? Like the Sejong the Great, the 055 might as well equip sixteen YJ-12 slanted canisters, as well as 128 VLS cells... The 13.5k tonne hull would allow it, and the "mystery platform" would also have a purpose.