055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

[Iron Man]

I think power plant limitation definite played a role on ship size. China doesn't like to rely on foreign imports for major weapon systems if it can help it. Look at how Russian frigate programs are doing with Ukrainian engines. And warships take many years of design and planning before construction can start. I bet 055 program didn't get the approval until Ukrainian gas turbines can be produced domestically.

Another factor is logistics. PLAN didn't start major replenishment ships construction until recently. Bigger ships burn more fuel.

Where did you get the idea that China doesn't like to rely on foreign imports for major weapons systems? China was perfectly happy to import all kinds of stuff starting in the 80's, most of all from non-US/non-European states after the embargo. If it needed a system, it would import it until it could make its own version. This applies equally to engines. In fact China is still perfectly happy to import hundreds of AL-31F's from Russia even nowadays, so I have no idea where you get the idea that China is reluctant to import stuff if it needs to. There are two DN-80s per 052C because the ship size is only ~7,000 tons. And the ship size is only 7,000 tons because that's the way PLAN wanted it.

As for the 055, I think a far more likely reason for the 055's more recent appearance was a lack of perceived need until now. The 055 has appeared when the PLAN is starting to need this type of ship as it is finally fielding enough blue water ships and oilers/replenishment ships to make SAGs, even large SAGs, a routine matter of course. These SAGs (and of course CSGs) would significantly benefit from this class of ship with its undoubtedly greater command capabilities.

Close Slava Class, less big than a Zumwalt mainly less futuristic less automated, Chinese don't like progress to big steps also.
But wide as all recent combattants which are more than before, stability matter ?

Considering the Zumwalt is 14,500 tons full and has a crew of 140, a crew of 280 for a 12-13kt 055 does not represent very much automation at all. Maybe a few dozen crew d via automation, at the most.

As for ship stability, the 055 seems more in line with previous PLAN ships than with the abnormally wide Burkes, Kongos/Atagos and King Sejongs.

 

[Blitzo]

Where did you get the idea that China doesn't like to rely on foreign imports for major weapons systems? China was perfectly happy to import all kinds of stuff starting in the 80's, most of all from non-US/non-European states after the embargo. If it needed a system, it would import it until it could make its own version. This applies equally to engines. In fact China is still perfectly happy to import hundreds of AL-31F's from Russia even nowadays, so I have no idea where you get the idea that China is reluctant to import stuff if it needs to. There are two DN-80s per 052C because the ship size is only ~7,000 tons. And the ship size is only 7,000 tons because that's the way PLAN wanted it.

While I do not agree with the original post by steve rolfe that suggested the Chinese Navy only built 052C due to powerplant "limitations," I imagine the availability of suitable powerplants probably did play a factor into the previous development pathway of 052C, the preceding 052B and 052 etc, and also did play a part in the considerations for developing 055.

Also, Shen didn't say that China doesn't like to rely on foreign imports for major weapons systems, but rather they would prefer to not rely on foreign imports if they could help it.
For 055's case, I do think the mastery of QC-280 and the ability to reliably produce it domestically probably did play a part in the decision making process in 055. This isn't to say it was necessarily a massive factor, because I'm sure there were a whole variety of other demands and requirements as well, but it was still probably there.

As for the 055, I think a far more likely reason for the 055's more recent appearance was a lack of perceived need until now. The 055 has appeared when the PLAN is starting to need this type of ship as it is finally fielding enough blue water ships and oilers/replenishment ships to make SAGs, even large SAGs, a routine matter of course. These SAGs (and of course CSGs) would significantly benefit from this class of ship with its undoubtedly greater command capabilities.

I agree, I think the most significant reason for the Navy developing 055 is due to their strategic needs and overall force requirement.
But at the same time, as I said above, I think the powerplant factor probably did play a role in terms of what this ship and preceding ships turned out to be.

 

[Iron Man]

While I do not agree with the original post by steve rolfe that suggested the Chinese Navy only built 052C due to powerplant "limitations," I imagine the availability of suitable powerplants probably did play a factor into the previous development pathway of 052C, the preceding 052B and 052 etc, and also did play a part in the considerations for developing 055.

Also, Shen didn't say that China doesn't like to rely on foreign imports for major weapons systems, but rather they would prefer to not rely on foreign imports if they could help it.
For 055's case, I do think the mastery of QC-280 and the ability to reliably produce it domestically probably did play a part in the decision making process in 055. This isn't to say it was necessarily a massive factor, because I'm sure there were a whole variety of other demands and requirements as well, but it was still probably there.

Of course China doesn't like to rely on foreign imports if they can help it. Why does this even need to be said? This is not the point. The real question is, if China wants a weapon system but doesn't have the domestic components, will it delay the weapon system because of this inconvenience? I'm pretty sure you will not ever be able to demonstrate that the availability (or lack thereof) of domestic engines played any significant part in the 055's timeline. It certainly didn't with 051B, 052, 052B, or 052C. Or J-10, J-11B, J-15, J-16, or even the J-20. The lesson with all of these ships and fighters is this: if the domestic engine's not ready, it doesn't even matter. Full speed ahead. In the 055's case, it just happened to be ready. If it wasn't, the first batch of 055s would have four DN-80s each. Guaranteed.

 

[Blitzo]

Of course China doesn't like to rely on foreign imports if they can help it. Why does this even need to be said? This is not the point. The real question is, if China wants a weapon system but doesn't have the domestic components, will it delay the weapon system because of this inconvenience? I'm pretty sure you will not ever be able to demonstrate that the availability (or lack thereof) of domestic engines played any significant part in the 055's timeline. It certainly didn't with 051B, 052, 052B, or 052C. Or J-10, J-11B, J-15, J-16, or even the J-20. The lesson with all of these ships and fighters is this: if the domestic engine's not ready, it doesn't even matter. Full speed ahead. In the 055's case, it just happened to be ready. If it wasn't, the first batch of 055s would have four DN-80s each. Guaranteed.

I do mostly agree with you.

Like I said, I don't necessarily believe that the 055 programme's approval was only dependent on the successful confirmation of the domestic production of DN-80 or anything as explicit as that, but at the same time I think there probably would've been a relationship of some sort between the progress or projected progress of QC-280 to the 055, during the development process. Of course, this statement is a very wiggly and broad one, and not that specific, but I do think it is a viable and sensible interpretation of the two opposite sides of the position.

 

[Iron Man]

Like I said, I don't necessarily believe that the 055 programme's approval was only dependent on the successful confirmation of the domestic production of DN-80 or anything as explicit as that, but at the same time I think there probably would've been a relationship of some sort between the progress or projected progress of QC-280 to the 055, during the development process.

Inasmuch as the WS-15 has any sort of relationship to the progress of the J-20, which seems to be not much if anything at all. They are proceeding on two separate timelines altogether; I think that much is obvious by now. We will probably see a couple squadrons of AL-31F-equipped J-20's before we see even a single WS-15-equipped J-20. Likewise, the designers of the 055 would have said something like "oh, the QC-280 is not ready yet? Okay, how many DN-80s can we get our hands on right now? 12? That's enough for 3 055s. Let's get started."

 

[Blitzo]

Inasmuch as the WS-15 has any sort of relationship to the progress of the J-20, which seems to be not much if anything at all. They are proceeding on two separate timelines altogether; I think that much is obvious by now. We will probably see a couple squadrons of AL-31F-equipped J-20's before we see even a single WS-15-equipped J-20. Likewise, the designers of the 055 would have said something like "oh, the QC-280 is not ready yet? Okay, how many DN-80s can we get our hands on right now? 12? That's enough for 3 055s. Let's get started."

Agree with description of J-20's development.

But whether 055 development would've gone via a similar method (such as if QC-280 was not ready and they had to rely on DN-80s), I think is not necessarily assured. I do think what you're suggesting is slightly more likely than the alternative, but it's not a sure thing in my mind. For example, if the short to medium term availability of DN-80s were under some doubt, then the Navy might have chosen to build more 052C/Ds (each of which only needs two such gas turbines) instead of committing them to 055s (each of which would need four).

That's why I think the availability of QC-280 was probably a factor in the plans for 055's development, because it isn't only about the performance of QC-280 and the fact that it is domestic, but rather it is the long term assurance of having a long term supply that I think would change the Navy's force procurement and risk/benefit calculations.

 

[Iron Man]

Agree with description of J-20's development.

But whether 055 development would've gone via a similar method (such as if QC-280 was not ready and they had to rely on DN-80s), I think is not necessarily assured. I do think what you're suggesting is slightly more likely than the alternative, but it's not a sure thing in my mind. For example, if the short to medium term availability of DN-80s were under some doubt, then the Navy might have chosen to build more 052C/Ds (each of which only needs two such gas turbines) instead of committing them to 055s (each of which would need four).

That's why I think the availability of QC-280 was probably a factor in the plans for 055's development, because it isn't only about the performance of QC-280 and the fact that it is domestic, but rather it is the long term assurance of having a long term supply that I think would change the Navy's force procurement and risk/benefit calculations.

This is essentially a non-issue IMO. As you said, the PLAN could easily divert 055 production into 052D production if there is a shortage of DN-80s. But as long as there is not a shortage, they would produce 055s. In all of this, the QC-280 is not even in the equation. That is why the timeline for 055 production is not really dependent on the QC-280 at all. If it's ready, it's in the 055. If it's not ready, the DN-80 is in. If the DN-80 is scarce, maybe some 052Ds in the meantime, or perhaps fewer 055s. If the DN-80 is totally unavailable, then more 054As (or whatever). Would they have produced fewer 055s just because the QC-280 wasn't ready? I don't think so at all. They would only have produced fewer 055s if the DN-80 was in short supply.

 

[Blitzo]

This is essentially a non-issue IMO. As you said, the PLAN could easily divert 055 production into 052D production if there is a shortage of DN-80s. But as long as there is not a shortage, they would produce 055s. In all of this, the QC-280 is not even in the equation. That is why the timeline for 055 production is not really dependent on the QC-280 at all. If it's ready, it's in the 055. If it's not ready, the DN-80 is in. If the DN-80 is scarce, maybe some 052Ds in the meantime, or perhaps fewer 055s. If the DN-80 is totally unavailable, then more 054As (or whatever). Would they have produced fewer 055s just because the QC-280 wasn't ready? I don't think so at all. They would only have produced fewer 055s if the DN-80 was in short supply.

The underlined areas are the angle I'm considering, and which I mentioend in the last few posts -- i.e.: the reliability of the supply and especially the longer term supply of DN-80s if QC-280 wasn't ready, and the effect that could have had on the Navy's plans for developing and procuring 055s.

Of course, we have no idea of knowing in an alternate universe, if QC-280 wasn't ready, what the state of the Chinese Navy's relationship with their Ukrainian suppliers would have been vis-a-vis DN-80 and the larger geopolitical and economic state of cooperation between the two countries that could facilitate or hinder the supply of DN-80s...

But I think at the very least the difference in reliable long term supply that production of QC-280 provides, vs the potentially riskier, less reliable supply of having to rely on imported DN-80 if the QC-280 wasn't ready, would have likely caused differing tracks of development and procurement of 055 and changed the calculus for planning in the two different scenarios. And the difference in calculus would depend on the Navy's own assessment of the reliability of the supply of DN-80s in whatever geopolitical and economic situation they are faced with in regards to the future cooperation with Ukraine.

 

[Iron Man]

But I think at the very least the difference in reliable long term supply that production of QC-280 provides, vs the potentially riskier, less reliable supply of having to rely on imported DN-80 if the QC-280 wasn't ready, would have likely caused differing tracks of development and procurement of 055 and changed the calculus for planning in the two different scenarios. And the difference in calculus would depend on the Navy's own assessment of the reliability of the supply of DN-80s in whatever geopolitical and economic situation they are faced with in regards to the future cooperation with Ukraine.

I don't think you're ever going to be able to demonstrate this opinion. You could say the exact same thing about Russia and AL-31Fs. Did it "change the calculus" for any of the fighters that depend on this engine? Doesn't look like it to me. They are all going full speed ahead. I have no doubt had the QC-280 not been ready, the 055 timeline would still be going full speed ahead. At least I have an analogous comparison on my side to demonstrate what the Chinese military has done about not-yet-ready domestic engines: they keep going anyway.

 

[Jura The idiot]

I do mostly agree with you.

Like I said, I don't necessarily believe that the 055 programme's approval was only dependent on the successful confirmation of the domestic production of DN-80 or anything as explicit as that, but at the same time I think there probably would've been a relationship of some sort between the progress or projected progress of QC-280 to the 055, during the development process. Of course, this statement is a very wiggly and broad one, and not that specific, but I do think it is a viable and sensible interpretation of the two opposite sides of the position.

two questions just not to get lost in the discussion here:

1. Is 'DN-80' some version of 'UGT 25000 DA80' (the fourth column in the table inside
   Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
   ) produced in Ukraine (and imported by China)? and
2. Is 'QC-280' some version of the above produced by China?