052/052B Class Destroyers

Re: DDG 052C Thread

Martian said:

Great web page on China's Type 054 and 054A Jiangkai-class frigate. I bookmarked it. Anyway, I brought out the colors in your photo; feel free to substitute it on your website if you wish.

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Excellent job. I usually use PS to ehnace the photos, but kind of rushed this one and used Paint Shop Pro, which does not have as much capability.

I have replaced that pic of the FFG530 with yours. Looks very good indeed. Thanks!

Re: DDG 052C Thread

keep in mind that because of it's location, the Atlantic will probably never be PLAN's backyard nor it's primary area of operations unlike the USN.

Regardless of how big they become their area of concentration is still going to be the Pacific basin and MAYBE limited operations in Indian ocean and the ocasional venture into Mid-East

Re: DDG 052C Thread

kwaigonegin said:

keep in mind that because of it's location, the Atlantic will probably never be PLAN's backyard nor it's primary area of operations unlike the USN.

Regardless of how big they become their area of concentration is still going to be the Pacific basin and MAYBE limited operations in Indian ocean and the ocasional venture into Mid-East

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Exactly. That is precisely why in my post above I stated...

Jeff Head said:

By 2015 they should have 25 DDGs and 38 FFGs. When you consider that for the most part they will be concentrated within the first two island chains, they will form a very significant force that cannot help but be taken into account...

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Re: DDG 052C Thread

Jeff Head said:

Exactly. That is precisely why in my post above I stated...

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Considering the topography of the area within the 2nd island chain (lots of islands), I'm guessing naval power itself won't be enough. Rather, it's the ability to take out each other's bases...no naval vessels can operate indefinitely. Not necessarily island-hopping àla WW2, but definitely some sort of neutralizing of bases. As such, within the 2nd island chain, naval power itself is only a part of the equation. As soon as one goes outside that barrier, however, it's all down to power projection through fleets and more specifically, carriers and larger amphibious warships. As such, I think China, although testing the waters in the Indian Ocean etc to stretch her legs, would still focus on being able to dominate close waters (which, considering the massive fleet strength she is facing, is still in limbo to some degree).

In smaller incidents, however, I'm sure even the current modern PLAN flotillas could definitely be a force to be reckoned.

Re: DDG 052C Thread

Maggern said:

Considering the topography of the area within the 2nd island chain (lots of islands), I'm guessing naval power itself won't be enough. Rather, it's the ability to take out each other's bases...no naval vessels can operate indefinitely. Not necessarily island-hopping àla WW2, but definitely some sort of neutralizing of bases. As such, within the 2nd island chain, naval power itself is only a part of the equation. As soon as one goes outside that barrier, however, it's all down to power projection through fleets and more specifically, carriers and larger amphibious warships. As such, I think China, although testing the waters in the Indian Ocean etc to stretch her legs, would still focus on being able to dominate close waters (which, considering the massive fleet strength she is facing, is still in limbo to some degree).

In smaller incidents, however, I'm sure even the current modern PLAN flotillas could definitely be a force to be reckoned.

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... and that will be PLAN's biggest crutch of all. No matter how great china becomes until or unless they establish major permanent naval/AF bases at least out to the 2nd island chain their power projection will be somewhat limited.

Again not to get too off topic BUT I see a fight for places like the Spratly islands or other islands in the Pacific in the not so distant future.

Re: DDG 052C Thread

kwaigonegin said:

... and that will be PLAN's biggest crutch of all. No matter how great china becomes until or unless they establish major permanent naval/AF bases at least out to the 2nd island chain their power projection will be somewhat limited.

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Dont expect china to ever be able to establish bases in the pacific. Its a vast territory buts since WWII its all ocuppied by the USA, japan, philipines and other pro-USA archipelagos and island-nations. Even the USSR never managed to establish a base in the pacific, except in continental asia (vietnam).

Thats why the prospect of china challenging USA´s domination of the pacific is luducrious at best. The USA needed a world war to dominate the pacific ocean. China wont get it less cheap.

Re: DDG 052C Thread

kroko said:

Dont expect china to ever be able to establish bases in the pacific. Its a vast territory buts since WWII its all ocuppied by the USA, japan, philipines and other pro-USA archipelagos and island-nations. Even the USSR never managed to establish a base in the pacific, except in continental asia (vietnam).

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"Ever" is a vast amount of time. And China already has bases in the pacific, technically speaking since the south china sea is part of the pacific.
With China's growing economic and political clout we could may well see things eventually change.

Thats why the prospect of china challenging USA´s domination of the pacific is luducrious at best. The USA needed a world war to dominate the pacific ocean. China wont get it less cheap.

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It's ludicrous because China needs to win a world war to dominate the pacific ocean? Okay...

Re: DDG 052C Thread

kroko said:

Dont expect china to ever be able to establish bases in the pacific. Its a vast territory buts since WWII its all ocuppied by the USA, japan, philipines and other pro-USA archipelagos and island-nations. Even the USSR never managed to establish a base in the pacific, except in continental asia (vietnam).

Thats why the prospect of china challenging USA´s domination of the pacific is luducrious at best. The USA needed a world war to dominate the pacific ocean. China wont get it less cheap.

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Those Island states sway with the wind. The USSR never had a chance because the US was always richer. That same equation may not hold true with China.

What more, many of those island nations in the Pacific are hardly what you call strong democracies. If they tire of American lectures about how they should run their islands, they may find China a more appealing backer.

Besides, why would China want to dominate the western Pacific? There is nothing past the second island chain but the US, and China has no interest in invading America. Even American video game makers have ditched China and gone with North Korea as the invading eastern hoard placeholder in their games.

China's main interest is in being able to prevent hostile powers from attacking China's critically important coastal regions. Thus if the PLAN can dominate up to the second island chain, that's mission accomplished as far as they are concerned, the USN are welcome to the rest of the Pacific for all the PLAN could care in such a situation.

The PLAN's long-term focus is going to be towards the South China Sea, and Indian Ocean because of on-going territorial disputes in the South China Sea, and because of the importance of China's shipping lanes that need to pass through those areas, both to bring resources and raw materials to China from the ME and Africa, as well as transporting finished goods the other way and also to Europe.

Re: DDG 052C Thread

No matter how great china becomes until or unless they establish major permanent naval/AF bases at least out to the 2nd island chain their power projection will be somewhat limited.

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Dont expect china to ever be able to establish bases in the pacific. Its a vast territory buts since WWII its all ocuppied by the USA, japan, philipines and other pro-USA archipelagos and island-nations. Even the USSR never managed to establish a base in the pacific, except in continental asia (vietnam).

Thats why the prospect of china challenging USA´s domination of the pacific is luducrious at best. The USA needed a world war to dominate the pacific ocean. China wont get it less cheap.

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Thank you kwaigonegin and kroko for your blunt blasts of reality. I don't think Chinese nationalists realize how much killing, colonizing, nation-building, and territory grabbing the United States effected to get to where it is today. The United States isn't the most dominant superpower simply because it has a big economy. The U.S. also has a massive expeditionary military, alliances, bases, and well-staffed diplomatic missions all of over the world. The American government has its finger in pies in every corner of the world. Chinese nationalists too often think that by growing their economy and keeping an isolationist foreign policy other nations will fall into line. That is not how power and influence work.

Economic growth is a plus-sum game, power is a zero-sum game, meaning what one country gains in power others lose. And nations usually don't give it up easily. Nobody handed the United States its superpower status, they had to take it. From the British, from the French, from the Soviets...take it and hold it. The United States had to muscle its way to superpower status.

China spouts a lot of rhetoric about being opposed to imperialism and colonialism. They use to spout a lot about collectivism and Marxism, too. The Chinese nationalists need to sober up to the reality that if China wants to be a superpower, nobody is going to lay down the red carpet for China; China has to build itself up. That means alliances, overseas bases, fingers in all kinds of pies (China is doing a good job at this), and activist diplomatic missions around the world--a global presence that stands up for Chinese interests. Economy, population, territory, military, culture/ideology, and most importantly organization are a superpower's ingredients.

Re: DDG 052C Thread

kroko said:

Dont expect china to ever be able to establish bases in the pacific. Its a vast territory buts since WWII its all ocuppied by the USA, japan, philipines and other pro-USA archipelagos and island-nations. Even the USSR never managed to establish a base in the pacific, except in continental asia (vietnam).

Thats why the prospect of china challenging USA´s domination of the pacific is luducrious at best. The USA needed a world war to dominate the pacific ocean. China wont get it less cheap.

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What do you mean by pro USA archipelago and island nation Certainly not Indonesia or Malaysia or Thailand All those 3 countries have excellent relation with China and NO US bases. Even Phillipine doesn't have US bases anymore. The last one Clark and Subic bay were closed long time ago.

Singapore allow small contingent of US personnel to procure replenishment for ships and did allow US ships for repair but NO BASES
That is probably the minimum gratitude to US for supplying weapon to their army.
But no formal defence arragement with US. Last time when CSB want to declare independence the present premier LSL went to Taiwan and bluntly told Chen Sui Bian not to expect help from Asean if Taiwan provoke the crisis

Even Vietnam doesn't allow US bases on her territories.

Put it this way you don't want to unnecessarily antagonize China because they are there next door. Empire come and go in Asia but they have to live next door to China forever. Plus China is their main trading partner and banker

As Plawolf said China foremost interest is guarding their territory not empire building