052/052B Class Destroyers

SinoSoldier

Colonel
Re: DDG 052C Thread

FCS will be replacing the RN's current frigates. Not the Type 45s which have not all entered service yet. Period.


Two of the Type 45s have already entered service. The FCS is a multirole ship, not just a frigate, and just because the Type 45 hasn't entered full service yet does not mean it will not be more advanced than it. Countries like Britain are known to start working on next generation systems before their current generation systems are in full service yet.


Yes but now you're moving the goal posts. Your argument before was that related to AAD, now BMD/ASAT.

The pure fact that the SM-3 possesses anti ballistic and anti satellite technology is an indication that it is much more capable and versatile than the HHQ-9 could ever be.

Isn't that what I said before? That's irrelevant to your post about how 052C does not have "full air defence capabilities" or whatever, and therefore justified an 052D follow up which somehow in your mind would be similar to the AB class.

And where did I say the 052C was comparable in firepower?

Then don't talk about how the "only advantage" AEGIS ships have are their quad packed ESSMs.

...So? Does that mean the PLAN will need a DDG in the AB class?
It would be nice, mind, but not absolutely necessary.

You seem intent for the PLAN to match what the USN has, and that is somehow what is best for the PLAN as well.

Yes, because China is the world's 3rd largest country? Because China has a series of shipping lanes it needs to protect? Because China's military goal is to deter American aggression? Why else do you think China needs weapons like ASBMs and ASAT missiles? One word: USA.



I wasn't only talking about your posts in the last 24 hours.
My interpretation of all your statements regarding 052D and the like going back weeks were that you seemed very convinced that it would "definitely" have X amount of missiles and Y VLS and etc. (I use "definitely" in the sense that a few years back, J-xx would "definitely" have a delta canard configuration, or a few months back when you "definitely" thought the JH-7B had flown in 2009 or whenever it was)

Funny, because my "predictions" (I would hardly call them "my predictions") on the J-XX came true and Huitong recently updated his page saying that the JH-7B prototype may have been built and can fly any time.

Point is, this is not my analysis. This is other analysts' analysis. For example, I get my information from Mr. James Dunnigan, Deagel.com, etc.
 

Schumacher

Senior Member
Re: DDG 052C Thread

.........
Yes, because China is the world's 3rd largest country? Because China has a series of shipping lanes it needs to protect? Because China's military goal is to deter American aggression? Why else do you think China needs weapons like ASBMs and ASAT missiles? One word: USA.
...........

I agree with SinoSoldier. Unlike most other forces in the world, PLA don't have the luxury of being satisfied with just above average weapons systems because they are indeed competing with THE best in the world, ie USN.
So, in that sense and if I understand correctly that's what being argued here, 052C is not good enough and PLAN will need something better soon and I believe something better is indeed being planned and will be revealed within next 2 years along with their indigenous carriers.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Re: DDG 052C Thread

I agree with SinoSoldier. Unlike most other forces in the world, PLA don't have the luxury of being satisfied with just above average weapons systems because they are indeed competing with THE best in the world, ie USN.
So, in that sense and if I understand correctly that's what being argued here, 052C is not good enough and PLAN will need something better soon and I believe something better is indeed being planned and will be revealed within next 2 years along with their indigenous carriers.

I agree with that, and we may well see a larger destroyer class in the next few years emerge. I agree with sinosoldier too, on the basic idea that a larger destroyer will probably be requried in the next few years.

But thinking an AB weight destroyer is absolutely necessary and that somehow it will fulfill the PLAN's surface combatant needs just because it can match the AB is ridiculous...

Along with some other smaller statements like how the 052C didn't have real AAD capability and what not.
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Re: DDG 052C Thread

Two of the Type 45s have already entered service. The FCS is a multirole ship, not just a frigate, and just because the Type 45 hasn't entered full service yet does not mean it will not be more advanced than it. Countries like Britain are known to start working on next generation systems before their current generation systems are in full service yet.

I never said the Type 45 would be more advanced than the FCS, but that's no reason for the FCS to replace the former.
Do some reading, almost every source of information you can get says FCS is a replacement for the Type 22 and 23 frigates.

The pure fact that the SM-3 possesses anti ballistic and anti satellite technology is an indication that it is much more capable and versatile than the HHQ-9 could ever be.

Well SM-3 isn't designed for hitting aerial targets is it? They're designed for different roles, if you wanted to compare SM-3 with something compare it with China's ASAT KT-1 or whatever it's called.
And why did you even mention the SM-3, I never said HQ-9 was better was more capable.

Then don't talk about how the "only advantage" AEGIS ships have are their quad packed ESSMs.

Here's what I wrote
How does the 052C not offer a "true" air defence capability? the only real advantage in terms of AAD I see with aegis ships is that they can quadpack ESSM, but that capability gap can be filled with 054A in a battlegroup.

See, I never said that was the only advantage, but rather the only advantage in AAD ^^

Yes, because China is the world's 3rd largest country? Because China has a series of shipping lanes it needs to protect? Because China's military goal is to deter American aggression? Why else do you think China needs weapons like ASBMs and ASAT missiles? One word: USA.

Not quite. More like "those are weapons at the time of inception were thought to work well against the USA". Would getting 10k ton class destroyers work well with the PLAN as it is right now? Would they be able to fill ever VLS with missiles? (USN's AB have trouble filling all of their's...)

The immediate idea that an AB type destroyer would be the best decision for the PLAN simply for the reasons you listed is ridiculous.
Would AB type destroyers help deter US aggression? Would a massive AB destroyer loaded with missiles be economical for both patrolling sea lanes and fighting in a big war?

Funny, because my "predictions" (I would hardly call them "my predictions") on the J-XX came true and Huitong recently updated his page saying that the JH-7B prototype may have been built and can fly any time.

Here's what he wrote
The latest rumor (May 2011) claimed a much improved version with stealth features, new avionics and DSI (JH-7B?) has been under development at 603/XAC and the first prototype may have been constructed.

So it certainly hasn't flown yet.
Your claims on J-XX (I actually don't remember you making any, but that's beside the point)? How about your claims about the H-8 or H-9 bombers and what not? I'm not wanting to discredit you in so many words, but a lot of your claims definitely need to be taken with a pinch of salt. It's not only me either.

And hey, I never called it "your" predictions either :p

Point is, this is not my analysis. This is other analysts' analysis. For example, I get my information from Mr. James Dunnigan, Deagel.com, etc.

Could you please post a link to where that site mentions an AB class destroyer is necessary for the PRC to grow as a power and deter US aggression and protect its shipping lanes please?
 
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flyzies

Junior Member
Re: DDG 052C Thread

China is not the USA. Different nations, different needs. PLAN should not just copy USN, it should work out what it needs to fulfill its own requirements....and I believe they are currently doing that.

At the end of the day, if CMC has decided 052C and 054A are what PLAN needs, then I trust their judgement over anyone else's opinion.
 

kroko

Senior Member
Re: DDG 052C Thread

I agree with SinoSoldier. Unlike most other forces in the world, PLA don't have the luxury of being satisfied with just above average weapons systems because they are indeed competing with THE best in the world, ie USN.
So, in that sense and if I understand correctly that's what being argued here, 052C is not good enough and PLAN will need something better soon and I believe something better is indeed being planned and will be revealed within next 2 years along with their indigenous carriers.

I dont agree with sinosoldier. Going by that logic, every nation not allied with the USA has to compete with the USN, because USN is present in every corner of the seas, except the south polar ocean. PLAN will only go against USN if it invades taiwan, or if it blocks south china sea. Then again, what would you expect ??
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Re: DDG 052C Thread

I think what we are seeing is the result of the convergence of several factors, but this does not necessarily indicate a fundamental strategic and policy shift by China.

Up till recently, most of the PLAN was pretty antiquated compared to world standard ships, and the PLAN has been engaged in a period of sprint catch up, with two ship classes only and pretty much compressing decades of naval development and advancement into a decade or two.

With the 054A and 052C, we have seen the first significant fruits of that labour, as for the first time the PLAN has indiginous major surface combatants that are comparable to the mainstay of other leading navies.

That I itself would have been justification enough for a large building up to bring the PLAN's main combat strength up to date.

However, at roughly the same time (and this may very likely not be just coincidence) the seagulls won against the turtles and the PLAN has committed itself to getting carries. Since China is never one to make important decisions like thisfor show, or to commit itself by halves when it has settled on a big decision, in my view, that means the PLAN has committed itself to at least a 3 carrier fleet to allow for one deployable flat top at all times. With the Varyag set to sail this year, it is my firm believe that we will see two new built Chinese carriers before the decade is out unless something pretty drastic happens before then.

The Varyag and the two expected new builds will each need a formidable escort fleet, and that is another reason why we are seeing such a long production run for 054As as well as new build 052Cs.

Almost to re-enforce this new postion, the deployments to Somalia, and then to Libya as underscored the main argument of the seagulls in that you need large, principle surface ships on scene to fly the flag in important international events and also to best safeguard your nationals and interests abroad. Those two missions have earn Beijing a great deal of kudos internationally and domestically, and that would not be allowed to be forgotten or unappreciated by the PLAN seagulls.

The deployments to Africa has also shown the PLAN itself how good the new ships are, and by extension, how unsuited their older ships are to such missions, so would further strengthen their committment to making them the PLAN's mainstay.

However, something to remember is that these are all short to medium term goals and ambitions, and apart from adding 3 carriers, and maybe half a dozen more DDGs as dedicated escorts, there is actually no need to further expand the PLAN fleet, as it is likely that the 3 carriers will just be allocated one each to the existing 3 fleets, and the rest of the CSG can come from existing fleet strengths instead of needing to be new builds.

While it is possible the PLAN may establish a new 'far fleet', maybe homeported in Pakistan to have easier access to the Indian Ocean, I think such a move would likely be far too aggressive for Beijings normal subtle tastes. If China establishes a new fleet and bases all 3 carriers in Pakistan, it will scare the bajesus out of the Indians and may star an arms race and/or push them firmly into America's camp, and I don't think China would want that. Also, such a fleet would seem too much like an 'expedition' fleet for China's liking.

Instead, the carriers would likely to allocated to each fleet, along with some new DDGs, and the fleets would be quietly told to establish an 'expeditionary battlegroup' within the fleet that can be deployed independently on missions at short notice, and which will probably train extensively with the expedition elements of the other fleets so that they could all deploy as a single massive task force effectively if needed.

That is what I see as the PLAN's aims for the next 10-20 years. But that is a long time, so it would make no sense to spam too many ships now, when the carriers they are supposed to escort may not be ready for up to a decade. Naval power talks time to build up, but ships also looses their cutting edge with time, as new technologies and developments make new designs so much better.

I like to call this the Dreadnaught bet, because the more you put into building warships, the stronger your naval might would become aye, but it also increases the costs to you if another 'dreadnaught' breakthrough happens, where something new is so foundamentally superior as to make all existing cutting-edge ships obselete almost overnight, like HMS dreadnaught did when it was launched.

Without a real operational need to have a massive fleet, and with enough ships to meet this current and plausable near future needs, I can easily see the current production bindge slowing back down to the old 2-ship class experimental improvement mode after these current 4 052C+ are finished. They might keep bashing out 054As, but it will be at a slower pace then the breakneck speed they have maintained these last few years.

Remember the PLAN has never had any delutions about challenging or matching the USN overall. Even the USN is probably far too big what what America actually needs. It is a throwback to the Cold War, and it is costing America a freightful amount of treasure to maintain, operate and renew.

Looking at America's national debt, it is not out of the question to imagine the US being called to make some tough decisions about what it actually needs and can afford in the future. If even the US cannot afford its current fleet levels, China would need to be crazy to try to match that.

I can see the PLAN expending fast till they reach a 3 carrier fleet, I would then expect a long period of adjustment and learning by the PLAN, where fleet expensive would stop or slow down dramatically. Then if China's economy keep growing, and if there is still a need, the PLAN may ultimately expend to a 6 carrier fleet. Maybe the next 3 would be nuclear supercarriers. But I honestly cannot see the PLAN expending beyond that size.

If the Americans are smart, they would welcome this and offer the PLAN the joint use of some existing US naval bases in exchance for Beijing taking on an appropriate share of international naval patrolling and policing responsibilities (and costs), so the USN can be scaled back, to maybe a 8-9 ship fleet. Still more powerful than the PLAN by a fair margin, but much more affordable.

Allowing the PLAN to jointly us current US naval bases would build goodwill, and also remove any excuse for the PLAN to develop their own chain of foreign bases, so the USN can just kick the Chinese out and greatly limit their long-range deployment and combat capabilities if relations really go south without having to fire a shot.

But I fear that would require the USN to give up too much of the superiority it sees as its god given right, and more critically, would require the US to see China as a peer instead of an inferior, which will likely be too much for the lot on Washington, who sees America as without peer.
 

Schumacher

Senior Member
Re: DDG 052C Thread

I dont agree with sinosoldier. Going by that logic, every nation not allied with the USA has to compete with the USN, because USN is present in every corner of the seas, except the south polar ocean. PLAN will only go against USN if it invades taiwan, or if it blocks south china sea. Then again, what would you expect ??

Big difference between merely not allied with and in direct competition with.

.........
With the Varyag set to sail this year, it is my firm believe that we will see two new built Chinese carriers before the decade is out unless something pretty drastic happens before then...............

That's conservative. I predict the 2 conventional CATOBAR domestic carriers to launch before 2015, and 2 more nuclear ones by 2020.
At least 1 more nuke by 2025 and then they'll stop there.
 
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plawolf

Lieutenant General
Re: DDG 052C Thread

Yes, I was being pretty conservative with the launch date expectations. If they are building two at the same time, we might see two launched by maybe 2015, but only the first is likely to be launched by 2015 if they were building the carriers concurrently.

Your expectation that the next 3 will be nuclear super carriers matches mine, and I think any more carrier China builds will be replacements for the Varyag and conventional indigenous carriers from the first 3. The total number of carriers the PLAN plan on having at any one time is unlikely to exceed 6 at the very most in the long term.
 

delft

Brigadier
Re: DDG 052C Thread

The design and building of any nuclear powered carriers surely will at least await several years experience with conventional propelled carriers. It might also be thought that Thorium molten salt reactors will be so much cheaper in use that an additional few years, if that were to be enough, would be acceptable.
 
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