052/052B Class Destroyers

Re: DDG 052C Thread

HKSDU said:

Many people thought 054A stopped ages ago, but its still going. Too many speculations without actual proof except online chatter. Predicting China development is basically impossible, we don't know how many they will make, when the next variant will be.

I know I said we have 18 vessels, meaning we have 18 confirmed. And of course they aren't going to stop there. They have got alot more vessels to replace. I tend to stay away from guessing and acquisition unless I have at least some form of small proof.

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Online chatter and discussion by military analysts are all we have right now. It is believed that after the 12th Type 054A is launched, it will move on to an upgraded variant. Even if the 12th Type 054A is an incorrect prediction, we are sure that there will be a newer variant of the Type 054A.

It will take a while for the PLAN to build up to capacity, but they are on their way.

Re: DDG 052C Thread

Engineer said:

I think what you meant is that China would view the 052D like how US views the Arleigh Burke.

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Exactly.

Re: DDG 052C Thread

Bltizo said:

Your analogies are fine, but your ambitions are a bit high.

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Ambitions? You don't need an expert to tell you that the current Type 052C/+ and Type 054A/+ are simply intermediate steps and do not possess sufficient capability.

Since many of you (and military analysts) suspect the Type 052D having more VLS launchers and weapons, I would suspect that it would be a mass production ship instead of what we see here.

Re: DDG 052C Thread

SinoSoldier said:

Ambitions? You don't need an expert to tell you that the current Type 052C/+ and Type 054A/+ are simply intermediate steps and do not possess sufficient capability.

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Those ships are no more intermediate steps than the Royal Navy's acquisition of their Type 45 AADs.

Since many of you (and military analysts) suspect the Type 052D having more VLS launchers and weapons, I would suspect that it would be a mass production ship instead of what we see here.

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It may well be possible any 052D could be far larger than the current 052C, but then you have to wonder how many the PLAN will want to and afford to procure.
Until we know more, thinking of the PLAN getting destroyers in the weight class of arleigh burkes and in their numbers is a pie in the sky, for now.

Re: DDG 052C Thread

SinoSoldier said:

Ambitions? You don't need an expert to tell you that the current Type 052C/+ and Type 054A/+ are simply intermediate steps and do not possess sufficient capability.

Since many of you (and military analysts) suspect the Type 052D having more VLS launchers and weapons, I would suspect that it would be a mass production ship instead of what we see here.

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It only points out how much you stand on loose gravel than solid ground. "052D DDG" or "054B FFG" are just rumors as best, or if you take those from Chinese BBS, that'd be worse - wet dreams and morning wood...now be a grown up and use your brain and logic to think, not that chemical-generating sack that hangs between your legs.

Remember, there's a good reason that they gone serial production on 052C DDG and 054A FFG - they works and would quantitatively and qualitatively improve the PLAN fleet in every way, not to the top-of-the-line USN standard but better than what came before the 052C DDG and 054A FFG.

And for comparison, if you want to know what'd be "intermediate", just look at those that PLAN only acquire in single or in pair.

BTW, those who keep screaming about the PLAN to match on par with USN is having the wettest of all wet dreams...the last time Soviets tried and it burned their economy. China is wary of suck into yet another arms race that'd only result in their ruin, though it still necessary to raise its arsenal's standard so others won't take them for easy picking once more. It's a delicate high-wire act.

Re: DDG 052C Thread

Bltizo said:

Those ships are no more intermediate steps than the Royal Navy's acquisition of their Type 45 AADs.



It may well be possible any 052D could be far larger than the current 052C, but then you have to wonder how many the PLAN will want to and afford to procure.
Until we know more, thinking of the PLAN getting destroyers in the weight class of arleigh burkes and in their numbers is a pie in the sky, for now.

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Royal Navy also happens to be a much smaller navy; their goals are not as large as the goals of the PLA Navy. Their Type 45s will also be eventually replaced by the Future Surface Combatant.

A larger Type 052D will give the PLA Navy a true air defense capability similar to that of the US AEGIS destroyers. That is what the PLA Navy is aiming for. They may even put their KT series of anti-satellite / anti ballistic missiles on there.

None of the stuff that's been speculated ever gets confirmed beforehand.

Re: DDG 052C Thread

SinoSoldier said:

Royal Navy also happens to be a much smaller navy; their goals are not as large as the goals of the PLA Navy. Their Type 45s will also be eventually replaced by the Future Surface Combatant.

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FCS is slated to replace Type 22 and 23 frigates, not the type 45s.
Yes the RN is smaller, and its aspirations are probably smaller than the PLAN's too. But does that mean they need 10k ton destroyers (effectively cruisers)?

A larger Type 052D will give the PLA Navy a true air defense capability similar to that of the US AEGIS destroyers. That is what the PLA Navy is aiming for. They may even put their KT series of anti-satellite / anti ballistic missiles on there.

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How does the 052C not offer a "true" air defence capability? the only real advantage in terms of AAD I see with aegis ships is that they can quadpack ESSM, but that capability gap can be filled with 054A in a battlegroup. I'm not going to make a claim about the 052C's AAD system (in terms of electronics) that I can't back up, but given time I see no reason why it can't be as capable as aegis. They had near a half decade to get the kinks out of the 052C's systems before mass producing them now. Go figure.

The arleigh burke DDGs just offer more flexible VLS on a bigger platform. Whether the PLAN will see this as wholly necessary is up for debate.

(btw by "air defence" I'm interpreting it as exclusively "air". Not BMD. But HQ-9 has a capability against ballistic missiles too, as does HQ-16 supposedly. Either way, I'm arguing for AAD nor BMD)

None of the stuff that's been speculated ever gets confirmed beforehand.

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Sure, but we can talk about what it might be like, and what the various BBS believes the "stuff" will be like... but we can never say for certainty.
Therefore, saying with certainty that the 052D is anything beyond a "larger more capable 052C destroyer" I think is wrong.

Re: DDG 052C Thread

SinoSoldier said:

Ambitions? You don't need an expert to tell you that the current Type 052C/+ and Type 054A/+ are simply intermediate steps and do not possess sufficient capability.

Since many of you (and military analysts) suspect the Type 052D having more VLS launchers and weapons, I would suspect that it would be a mass production ship instead of what we see here.

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And yet the Type 054A is being mass produced. The count of those built or building is now 13 minimum and maybe 14 and more.

And the Type 052C is being built rapidly now too. They had two for several years and then they build two more and have two more right behind that from all we can see at this point. if that is true, and the PLAN goes from two 052Cs to six 052Cs in short order, then I will go out on a limb and say that the PLAN is serially building those too now, and will continue to do so at least in the near term.

We shall see. Depends on how many they think they need.

But, both the 054a and the 052C provide capabilities for the PLAN that are orders of magnitude greater than they had up until this point in the main. Outside of two 052Bs, two 051Cs and the Sovs, the rest have been very antiquated in capability in the main up to this point. I would call those intermediate, place filler platforms until the PLAN could go into full serial production with the 054A and 052C.

These two classes however are very capable and pose a threat to any other nation that cannot be ignored, particularly in the Western Pacific within the two island chains. The US and its allies all see this and they are all building up to counter it. They would not do so if they thought these vessels did not pose a threat and they (cummulatively) are responding in a manner to massively outbuild and out perform them.

I expect at some point the PLAN will in fact have a next step beyond both the 054A and the 052C, but I also expect them to build quite a few more of each and get experience using these much more modern platforms to learn fleet operations with their LPDs and Carriers, as well as larger SAGs.

Anyhow, that's just my own opinion.

Re: DDG 052C Thread

Bltizo said:

FCS is slated to replace Type 22 and 23 frigates, not the type 45s.
Yes the RN is smaller, and its aspirations are probably smaller than the PLAN's too. But does that mean they need 10k ton destroyers (effectively cruisers)?



How does the 052C not offer a "true" air defence capability? the only real advantage in terms of AAD I see with aegis ships is that they can quadpack ESSM, but that capability gap can be filled with 054A in a battlegroup. I'm not going to make a claim about the 052C's AAD system (in terms of electronics) that I can't back up, but given time I see no reason why it can't be as capable as aegis. They had near a half decade to get the kinks out of the 052C's systems before mass producing them now. Go figure.

The arleigh burke DDGs just offer more flexible VLS on a bigger platform. Whether the PLAN will see this as wholly necessary is up for debate.

(btw by "air defence" I'm interpreting it as exclusively "air". Not BMD. But HQ-9 has a capability against ballistic missiles too, as does HQ-16 supposedly. Either way, I'm arguing for AAD nor BMD)



Sure, but we can talk about what it might be like, and what the various BBS believes the "stuff" will be like... but we can never say for certainty.
Therefore, saying with certainty that the 052D is anything beyond a "larger more capable 052C destroyer" I think is wrong.

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1. The Future Surface Combatant very well may be more advanced than the Type 45. It being planned to replace the older ships have no relevance to its capability.

2. You cannot ignore the fact that the Arleigh Burke has anti ballistic and anti satellite capabilities as well. That is one of the reasons why AEGIS systems are so effective and is respected around the world.

Continuing from the point above, the Type 052C, unlike the Arleigh Burke, cannot carry anti ballistic or anti satellite missiles. The Type 052C also only carries half the missiles as the Arleigh Burke. Don't tell me that a ship that can only carry 48 200-km-range SAMs is comparable in firepower to a ship that can carry 96 missiles capable of engaging ballistic missiles, satellites, aircraft, ships, and submarines. Flexibility is exactly what gives the Arleigh Burke the ultimate edge.

The Type 052C also carries only 8 anti ship or cruise missiles. The Arleigh Burke can pack them in their VLS cells. Comparing the Type 052C to the Arleigh Burke is like comparing a puppy to a wolf.

3. Isn't that what I'm doing? I'm never said that the Type 052D definitely will be a mass production ship. I said that it is believed that the Type 052D is larger in tonnage and will most likely be chosen for mass production.

Re: DDG 052C Thread

SinoSoldier said:

1. The Future Surface Combatant very well may be more advanced than the Type 45. It being planned to replace the older ships have no relevance to its capability.

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FCS will be replacing the RN's current frigates. Not the Type 45s which have not all entered service yet. Period.

2. You cannot ignore the fact that the Arleigh Burke has anti ballistic and anti satellite capabilities as well. That is one of the reasons why AEGIS systems are so effective and is respected around the world.

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Yes but now you're moving the goal posts. Your argument before was that related to AAD, now BMD/ASAT.

Continuing from the point above, the Type 052C, unlike the Arleigh Burke, cannot carry anti ballistic or anti satellite missiles. The Type 052C also only carries half the missiles as the Arleigh Burke. Don't tell me that a ship that can only carry 48 200-km-range SAMs is comparable in firepower to a ship that can carry 96 missiles capable of engaging ballistic missiles, satellites, aircraft, ships, and submarines. Flexibility is exactly what gives the Arleigh Burke the ultimate edge.

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Isn't that what I said before? That's irrelevant to your post about how 052C does not have "full air defence capabilities" or whatever, and therefore justified an 052D follow up which somehow in your mind would be similar to the AB class.

And where did I say the 052C was comparable in firepower?

The Type 052C also carries only 8 anti ship or cruise missiles. The Arleigh Burke can pack them in their VLS cells. Comparing the Type 052C to the Arleigh Burke is like comparing a puppy to a wolf.

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...So? Does that mean the PLAN will need a DDG in the AB class? It would be nice, mind, but not absolutely necessary.

You seem intent for the PLAN to match what the USN has, and that is somehow what is best for the PLAN as well.

3. Isn't that what I'm doing? I'm never said that the Type 052D definitely will be a mass production ship. I said that it is believed that the Type 052D is larger in tonnage and will most likely be chosen for mass production.

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I wasn't only talking about your posts in the last 24 hours.
My interpretation of all your statements regarding 052D and the like going back weeks were that you seemed very convinced that it would "definitely" have X amount of missiles and Y VLS and etc. (I use "definitely" in the sense that a few years back, J-xx would "definitely" have a delta canard configuration, or a few months back when you "definitely" thought the JH-7B had flown in 2009 or whenever it was)