052/052B Class Destroyers

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Jeff Head said:

IMHO, they should also replace that forward missile battery with their FL-3000N.

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Logically, I do agreed too that the HHQ-7 should've been replaced with something newer, but somehow I wonder if they can stuff the VLS system there without too much work on the structure itself...also the CIWS coverage on it is bad, better to have another Type 730 facing forward too for a full coverage.

So what'd they have in mind for it? A destroyer with still pretty dismal air defense capability...

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

I would be interested to get a good look at the stern and under the water line. This would be a pretty good platform to turn into a full blooded ASW ship.

If they had it in dry dock and changed the engines, that is some pretty serious work, and if you already have the ship gutted and opened up as would be necessary to change engines, would it really be that much trouble to work in a flank array sonar and a bigger bulb in the bow?

Compared to that, upgrading the TAS would be easy. With the larger 2 helo hanger to boot, this really is the most suitable ship the PLAN currently have to turn into a dedicated ASW platform.

It is certainly way past time the PLAN got some serious surface ASW assets, and with the Varyag looking set to sail this year, these ships would make perfect additions to finally allow the PLAN to cover all its bases in terms of carrier escorts, and the timing also fits very nicely.

If I am right, the future Varyag CSG could look like:
- Varyag
- 1-2 052Cs and/or 1-2 051Cs
- 1-2 093s
- 2-4 054As
- 1-2 052 upgrades.
- 1-2 fleet tenders

Looks like a pretty good mix of everything you could want in a carrier battle group if the 052s are upgraded to be the dedicated ASW ships.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

No doubt that they are upgrading Type 052's ASW capabilities, but the only change that can be seen is that the DUBV 43 VDS has been removed.

All reporting is that ex-VARYAG will be homeported in the South Sea Fleet, so its escort will basically be provided by the 2nd and 9th Destroyer Flotillas. The NSF-based Type 051C and 052 will then not be included.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Just because a ship was based with a fleet does not mean it is locked in forever to that fleet. If the PLAN feel the Varyay could do with a NSF or ESF ship in its escort, that ship will be in its escort.

With at least 2, and probably 4 more 052Cs being built, it is likely that the NSF will be getting a pair of those, so its not like they would be massively put out if one or even both of the upgraded 052s were transfered over to the SSF.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

franco-russe said:

They could certainly easily fit the HHQ-10 into the space occupied by the HHQ-7, but would that be an improvement? The HHQ-10, or FL-3000N, is a CIWS, and has to date not been fitted into any destroyers, though I am sure it will be in due course. The only combattant to have it so far is the ex-VARYAG (CHONGQING?).

Crotale Naval is probably not so bad. I would be surprised if the PLAN did not have the improved VT-1 missile (Mach 3.5) which has been in production since about 1992 and which, like the original missile has a range of 13 km. If the reloading system is the standard one, it should hold 18 spare missiles.

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I think HHQ-10 should be considered an improvement over HHQ-7 in terms of space requirement, multiple engagement capability and reaction time and such. Also, HQ-10 launcher does hold more missiles. However, I do think that China produced many HHQ-7 missiles, so they are not interested in replacing all of the HHQ-7 systems (especially for the older vessels). PLAN is quite frugal.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

HQ-7 is such an obsolete short-range SAM. The PLAN should at least put the HQ-16 in there so the hundreds of men on board would stand a better chance in wartime.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

A ship like the 052 will not go anywhere with a real air threat by itself. As part of a fleet or task force, it would be able to rely on the long range SAMs on ships like the 052C, 051C and 054As to stop the vast majority of hostile aircraft and incoming missiles. Its SAMs and Type 730 are only there as a last line of defense against anything that slips through.

Pretty much every navy in the world has second tier ships like the 052 with only a point defense capability but which fills other important roles within a fleet.

It is wasteful and unnecessary to give every ship in the fleet PARs and long range VLS missiles.

Besides, the HQ7 is still nothing to sneeze at, and is still a very competent short range missile. Not as fancy as some of the newer stuff, but it is good enough to get the job done so there is no need to replace them just for the sake of replacing them.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

plawolf said:

Just because a ship was based with a fleet does not mean it is locked in forever to that fleet. If the PLAN feel the Varyay could do with a NSF or ESF ship in its escort, that ship will be in its escort.

With at least 2, and probably 4 more 052Cs being built, it is likely that the NSF will be getting a pair of those, so its not like they would be massively put out if one or even both of the upgraded 052s were transfered over to the SSF.

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The division of PLAN in three fleets made perfect sense in the time it was still a coast defense navy. With the induction of aircraft carriers and large amphibious ship will come a reorganization probably in a single home fleet and, perhaps much later, an ocean fleet.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

delft said:

The division of PLAN in three fleets made perfect sense in the time it was still a coast defense navy. With the induction of aircraft carriers and large amphibious ship will come a reorganization probably in a single home fleet and, perhaps much later, an ocean fleet.

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I agree with most of that, we are already seeing signs of this happening with the new massive naval base being built on Hainan island where the majority of the PLAN's power projection capability has been based.

And with the PLAN seemingly now committed to having a port in Pakistan, that would probably end up being the home port of a new PLAN fleet (or second home to a much expanded SSF) which would be responsible for guarding Chinese interests and shipping lanes in the Indian ocean and Africa area.

Although I am not too convinced the current 3 fleets would end up being merged into one. There will be a lot of resistance to such a move, and the three fleets have distinct enough responsibilities to make me think merging them into one would not be too practical.

Currenty the NSF is responsible for extended protection of Beijing as well as to counter SK and Japanese (and NK as well I guess) naval power in the region.

The ESF is primarily tasked with Taiwan and possibly the countering of USN CSGs, while the SSF is responsible for safeguarding Chinese interests in the SSF, and now looks like it is set to either add the protection of China's shipping lanes with the ME and Africa, or a new fleet will be created to do that with a home base in Pakistan.

I could possibly see the NSF and ESF being merged, while the SSF is expanded and tasked with its traditional area of responsibility as well as the Indian Ocean.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

And with the PLAN seemingly now committed to having a port in Pakistan...

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Oh? I thought "China" was just going to operate the port, the way Hutchinson-Whampoa does elsewhere, and the Singapore Port Authority does now at Gwadar itself.