asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer
Big modern boys these Type 052D are!!
Big modern boys these Type 052D are!!
052/052B Class Destroyers
- Thread starter tphuang
- Start date
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer
Nothing but speculation and personal opinion aside from the engine Pielstick there is no proof whatsoever french ever sold subsystem to China recently. All these westerner cannot reconcile the fact that China is now independence in naval warfare
Back in 8o France sold Tavitac command and control center and DUBV 23 sonar system and 57 mm naval gun for Luda improvement. But that was years ago and the system must be outdated by now. The Chinese could improve and those system it becomes indigenous technology
Nothing but speculation and personal opinion aside from the engine Pielstick there is no proof whatsoever french ever sold subsystem to China recently. All these westerner cannot reconcile the fact that China is now independence in naval warfare
Back in 8o France sold Tavitac command and control center and DUBV 23 sonar system and 57 mm naval gun for Luda improvement. But that was years ago and the system must be outdated by now. The Chinese could improve and those system it becomes indigenous technology
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re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer
Well the helicopter landing system isn't Chinese, it's developed from the heligrid by Cramm. Cramm are a dutch company.
The engines are french like you said. But so is the Z-9C helicopter which operates from 054As.
However the fire control, SAM, main gun, radar, etc, are not sourced from the French.
They were developed based on Russian systems.
So China is now mostly independent in naval ship construction, yes. But it couldn't have got here without access to foreign technology. So accept it and move on.
Well the helicopter landing system isn't Chinese, it's developed from the heligrid by Cramm. Cramm are a dutch company.
The engines are french like you said. But so is the Z-9C helicopter which operates from 054As.
However the fire control, SAM, main gun, radar, etc, are not sourced from the French.
They were developed based on Russian systems.
So China is now mostly independent in naval ship construction, yes. But it couldn't have got here without access to foreign technology. So accept it and move on.
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer
Maybe you can then explain why in the last five years China has imported PA6 and PC2.5 naval diesel engine from France
Add to that AL-31and D-30 from Russia, Spey turbofans from UK, MTU-883 from Germany and AI-25 from Ukraine
Maybe you can then explain why in the last five years China has imported PA6 and PC2.5 naval diesel engine from France
Add to that AL-31and D-30 from Russia, Spey turbofans from UK, MTU-883 from Germany and AI-25 from Ukraine
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer
I think China has indigenous production of the diesel engines they need now, and the Spey turbofans were indigenous construction years ago as WS-9, not imported.
What was the MTU-883 for? Tanks? Over on CDF I think it's been pretty clearly documented as indigenous.
In any case, what Hendrik said wasn't incorrect per se. China is now largely independent in naval construction. It can produce the gas turbines and diesels it needs on its own. They can develop all their own subsystems, whether they are completely new build and indigenous or developed from existing foreign models to improve their specs for the PLAN.
Otherwise we woudln't see such full fledged production of 054As and 052C/Ds.
I think China has indigenous production of the diesel engines they need now, and the Spey turbofans were indigenous construction years ago as WS-9, not imported.
What was the MTU-883 for? Tanks? Over on CDF I think it's been pretty clearly documented as indigenous.
In any case, what Hendrik said wasn't incorrect per se. China is now largely independent in naval construction. It can produce the gas turbines and diesels it needs on its own. They can develop all their own subsystems, whether they are completely new build and indigenous or developed from existing foreign models to improve their specs for the PLAN.
Otherwise we woudln't see such full fledged production of 054As and 052C/Ds.
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer
I think you two know the purpose of my post it does not need any further explanation
I think you two know the purpose of my post it does not need any further explanation
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer
Not to sound to belligerent, but if your purpose was to point out that China isn't self sufficient in engines, it was sort of a hit and miss.
Hendrik never claimed that China was self sufficient in engines, only naval production of warships -- and we've known for years that China can produce all the subsystems on its own, from diesels to weapons and radar, and now gas turbines.
If you're pointing out aerospace engines, then I agree with you to an extent, for instance China did still import D-30s, Al-31s. However the Spey example is blatantly incorrect because China acquired the license to produce it indigenously as WS-9 years ago, that's why we're seeing unfettered JH-7A production.
Not to sound to belligerent, but if your purpose was to point out that China isn't self sufficient in engines, it was sort of a hit and miss.
Hendrik never claimed that China was self sufficient in engines, only naval production of warships -- and we've known for years that China can produce all the subsystems on its own, from diesels to weapons and radar, and now gas turbines.
If you're pointing out aerospace engines, then I agree with you to an extent, for instance China did still import D-30s, Al-31s. However the Spey example is blatantly incorrect because China acquired the license to produce it indigenously as WS-9 years ago, that's why we're seeing unfettered JH-7A production.
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer
Obviously from the number of engines imported and naval vessals built it don't add up so it means China must be making all naval engines by itself I knew that years ago when Type 052C production had restarted and after Type 054A units got into double figures that goes without saying
But To say France never sold a subsystem to China recently is nothing but sheer ignorance and in that lies the problem
Obviously from the number of engines imported and naval vessals built it don't add up so it means China must be making all naval engines by itself I knew that years ago when Type 052C production had restarted and after Type 054A units got into double figures that goes without saying
But To say France never sold a subsystem to China recently is nothing but sheer ignorance and in that lies the problem
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer
If you read my comment I did mention recently. If you think first before shouting you should know France is bound by ITAR She cannot conceivably sell china dual use weapon system. period . All those system sold to China were long time ago when there is brief honeymoon between China and the west . But Since TAM China is under weapon embargo
As Blitzo clearly explained as now China is independent. Yes she import couple of sample long time ago and could conceivably based some of the system on those imported one But I would say this probably apply more to Russian design and aside from few system, the majority is not based on western design
If you read my comment I did mention recently. If you think first before shouting you should know France is bound by ITAR She cannot conceivably sell china dual use weapon system. period . All those system sold to China were long time ago when there is brief honeymoon between China and the west . But Since TAM China is under weapon embargo
As Blitzo clearly explained as now China is independent. Yes she import couple of sample long time ago and could conceivably based some of the system on those imported one But I would say this probably apply more to Russian design and aside from few system, the majority is not based on western design
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer
I think you will find you are wrong again not only has the West sold weapons but so has Europe obviously not to the extent some would like but never the less and this is all in the last 5-10 years not pre - 1989
Israel, Ukraine and Russia as well as European county's such as Germany, France, UK and Switzerland and none were limited to duel use weapons
Swiss sold G-DF 35 mm AA gun and Israel sold Python 3 the list is quite extensive, and if you have any more comments I will eat them up right here
That's how it works in the world and every one does it no one is 100% indigenous
I think you will find you are wrong again not only has the West sold weapons but so has Europe obviously not to the extent some would like but never the less and this is all in the last 5-10 years not pre - 1989
Israel, Ukraine and Russia as well as European county's such as Germany, France, UK and Switzerland and none were limited to duel use weapons
Swiss sold G-DF 35 mm AA gun and Israel sold Python 3 the list is quite extensive, and if you have any more comments I will eat them up right here
That's how it works in the world and every one does it no one is 100% indigenous