052/052B Class Destroyers

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

This forum is great, a lot of high quality discussions and ideas.

If I were in charge of PLAN ... I would hire some of forum members here as a consultant, perhaps 5 of them and Jeff definitely would be one of those

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Hendrik_2000 said:

You don't seem to get it do you?.The shipping yard in China improve a lot because they have thriving civilian ship building. Now ask the question why they improve ? I don't think it is because of Soviet help
The shipyard in China improve because all those Hongkong shipping magnate like sir Y K Pao and Tang start buying ships in China in the 80's And they hire the best naval architect and demand a stringent spec for quality control. That is what improve the Chinese shipyard not the Russian!

They have to have the best ship in order to get license and lower the insurance cost!

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i have said this to you before, if you are trying to be nationalistic then this kind of nationalism is of the worst kind and i am glad vast majority of Chinese dont think like this which is why they are moving ahead, you will not get very far with this mentality same goes for Lion

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Imo, it isn't an issue to reveal the true facts. I for one, not too long ago, thanks (or no thanks?) to the some of the media, thought that most of China's FDI came from the West. I knew there were quite a few FDIs from China's closer neighbours but didn't know the actual stats.

Now, back to the thread's topic.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

antiterror13 said:

If I were in charge of PLAN ... I would hire some of forum members here as a consultant, perhaps 5 of them and Jeff definitely would be one of those

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Thank you for the compliment, antiterror. I am not sure it is all that well deserved, but I thank you just the same.

Because this came up once before, I have to make a comment and repond.

I have nothing but the greatest respect for the Chinese people and their culture and long history. I respect greatly what they are accomplishing now with their modernization and buildup....they are making great strides and developing and fielding outstanding systems, particularly in a very relatively short amount of time.

Having said that, the current ideological differences between the CCP and the United States...even with the admitted short comings and failings our system may have, and all nations have them...make it impossible for me to provide any type of material or consultative support to any branch of the PRC government that could possibly confront or damage, or be adverarily positioned against the United States. If it came to humanitarian help, like irrigatrion, or other civil type things that would improve the indivdual lives of Chinese epople, that would be different.

But because our national interests do diverge in some areas, and because of the potential for adversarial relationships, I could not aide the development of forces, technology, etc. that might be used against my own nation.

I took an oath, long ago, to protect and defend the United States Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic, and to bear true faith and allegiance to that Constitution, which I view as the single best document ever written by man regarding the proper role of government with respect to governance of its people. I must do all in my power, for as long as I draw breath, to honor that oath and commitment. No position of power, influence...no wealth, and certainly no vice could ever be allowed to stand between me and the fulfilling of that oath.

And, by the way, right now I view the internal enemies to our Constitution as the greater threat.

Again, thank you for the compliment. I hope there is no ill will, bad feeling, or offense taken at my post here. But, since you called me out by name, I needed to respond and make my own position made clear.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Hendrik_2000 said:

You don't seem to get it do you?.The shipping yard in China improve a lot because they have thriving civilian ship building. Now ask the question why they improve ? I don't think it is because of Soviet help
The shipyard in China improve because all those Hongkong shipping magnate like sir Y K Pao and Tang start buying ships in China in the 80's And they hire the best naval architect and demand a stringent spec for quality control. That is what improve the Chinese shipyard not the Russian!

They have to have the best ship in order to get license and lower the insurance cost!

Click to expand...

Any simpleton could tell you that the Overseas Chinese didn't provide the technology, but a lot of the managerial and financial werewithal.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

That's like saying, you just need a few bankers, managers to set up any industrial, technological companies in China. Don't think so.

Most of the oversea companies that set up business in China, are already established players in their home countries with all the technological base and knowledge that are needed to run the business.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

There was an old 1990s article on German assistance to Chinese Navy shipyard:


The article can no longer be accessed from the site, but its archived here:



I had first mentioned the article in 2007:
http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/world-armed-forces/article-f25t-naresuan-class-specs-3370.html

IMO the Jiangwei class was China's MEKO frigate and the 054 was China's La Fayette frigate. It would be foolish to discount European assistance in Chinese navy technology in 1980s-1990s, or non-military tech assistance & training provided by Singapore, Thailand, and Malaysia after the Sino-Vietnam war in 1979. Japan provided various assistance and loans in 1970s-1980s, though it was also self serving with dependence on Chinese oil exports and hedge against possible renewed China-Soviet relationship during the Cold War. Ironically the pro-Taiwan factions in Japan was against providing loans to China's developmental projects at the time, but by 1990s Taiwanese businessmen were crawling allover Shanghai.

To say that China would be a giant NK without assistance from Soviets, US, and Japan is ignoring contributions from other countries toward China's development. In late 1970s, when Japan was debating on providing government loans to China, they were late to the game and competing with France, UK, Sweden, and Canada which had offered billions in loans. Anyways, this is OT and if we want to continue discussing it, we should move it to another thread.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

adeptitus said:

There was an old 1990s article on German assistance to Chinese Navy shipyard:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

The article can no longer be accessed from the site, but its archived here:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

I had first mentioned the article in 2007:
http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/world-armed-forces/article-f25t-naresuan-class-specs-3370.html

IMO the Jiangwei class was China's MEKO frigate and the 054 was China's La Fayette frigate. It would be foolish to discount European assistance in Chinese navy technology in 1980s-1990s, or non-military tech assistance & training provided by Singapore, Thailand, and Malaysia after the Sino-Vietnam war in 1979. Japan provided various assistance and loans in 1970s-1980s, though it was also self serving with dependence on Chinese oil exports and hedge against possible renewed China-Soviet relationship during the Cold War. Ironically the pro-Taiwan factions in Japan was against providing loans to China's developmental projects at the time, but by 1990s Taiwanese businessmen were crawling allover Shanghai.

To say that China would be a giant NK without assistance from Soviets, US, and Japan is ignoring contributions from other countries toward China's development. In late 1970s, when Japan was debating on providing government loans to China, they were late to the game and competing with France, UK, Sweden, and Canada which had offered billions in loans. Anyways, this is OT and if we want to continue discussing it, we should move it to another thread.

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I think it is wrong to conflate military developments with economic ones. China has developed economically not because of foreign loans or investments (though FDI is certainly a part of it) but because of a regime of export-led growth following the Asian Development State model of Korea, Taiwan, etc. This was made possible by engaging the world market through using China's comparative labour advantage (and monetary sterilization) to achieve trade surpluses that would then be used to invest in infrastructure development.

China has developed militarily so it could better assert its economic interests which are, as a result of marketisation, becoming more and more connected with the rest of the world.

Purely in terms of military development, if there is anyone that China should even conceivably "thank," the Soviets are the only candidate: first for providing engineering know-how, military aid, and technical expertise before the Sino-Soviet Split (1960); secondly for selling off cheap gear to China immediately following the dissolution of the Soviet Union and during the 1990s. However this has nothing to do with the Russians being altruistic, they were not doing China favours for China's sake.

Western countries (Japan is geopolitically Western) have largely maintained various economic sanctions and arms embargoes on China since 1949. They are compelled to engage China because of economic or political necessity and only when it is unprofitable to not do so. The suggestion that China must "thank" anyone for "helping" it develop, either militarily or economically, lest it become a "Giant North Korea," is based on so many vague precepts and misconceptions that it's a shame the Type-052 thread has been derailed by it.

-I realize I am being somewhat hypocritical by not talking about the Type-052, but I simply could no longer bear that no one has asserted economic/military development are different things. Because volleyballer's original statement about "Giant North Korea" was so vague, I am forced to assume that he is conflating military development with economic development.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Not another discussion about trying to claim credits for China's progress .....
Experience shows these usually originate from foreign fanboys who have their ego bruised by China's progress just as much as from Chinese with inferiority complex not used to seeing China's achievements today.
It's just too funny to try to credit China's progress to some normal trade, tech exchanges etc especially with some nations who have all kinds of sanctions if not outright hostilities with China over the decades. If this is true, then pretty much every nations progress is much more dependent on foreign help given the much freer trade, tech exchanges going on, so the discussion is quite moot.

For those who just need to trace the origin of everyone's progress. US high tech sector is much more dependent on the disproportionately high number of Chinese scientists working there than any occasional exports of western high tech to China mostly done in secrets under threats of sanctions. If that's not enough, the entire western civilization is based on Chinese inventions anyway. So relax.

Finally, that someone is trying to credit Russia with progress in modern shipbuilding, of all things, takes the cake in this discussion.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

How about we all agree that no economic and technological growth in any civilisation or country is completely insular and return to discussion about 052??