052/052B Class Destroyers

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

volleyballer said:

Sorry Lion, but seriously, China would be a giant North Korea today were if not for the help from the Soviets, Americans, and Japanese. Granted, the Chinese are extremely good students and a big part of where they are today is a direct result of its own tremendous efforts. But credits needs to be given where due.

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But your context is not relevant in regards to Sov and current situtation. And compare North Korea to China even without initial foreign assist is a big joke! China is a open market with booming economic while North Korea remains closed. China is able to absorb duo use of civilian technology. A total close of military hardware by any power to China will only spur top brass to fully accelerate modernisation of military. China military GDP will rose more than 2% of the current one.

And Russian military sales to China is entirely based on commercial value rather than frienship. Unless its given like in the 50s and early 60s of the Soviet. Entired Su-30MKK project is funded by PLAAF and in fact, its China military purchase that keeps Russian military in the 90s afloat. If I used your theory, Russian shall be grateful that China buys their arm and keep them alive?

I think I do not need to remind you Russian method of conducting military deal with tendency of trying overcharging customers like India and China. But Russia learn the hardway from IL-76 deal with China and only dares to play punk with India.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

A.Man said:

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052D4 in the same place

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

volleyballer said:

Sorry Lion, but seriously, China would be a giant North Korea today were if not for the help from the Soviets, Americans, and Japanese. Granted, the Chinese are extremely good students and a big part of where they are today is a direct result of its own tremendous efforts. But credits needs to be given where due.

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I don't know where you get this idea from? People should not claim credit where credit is not due.After TAM the west including Japan boycott China. They stop investment and instituted the most stringent technical embargo that is still stand today. If you don't believe me google ITAR .

If you look the investment coming into China in early 80's and 90's. Most of those money come from Hongkong and other Other Overseas Chinese bases( Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore latter Taiwan) . With this new money and marketing skill soon China flooded the low tech consumer good in Asia . Korea and Japan soon loose their consumer market in Asia and they start trekking back to China . US was latecomer in investing in China.

They don't do it out of their good heart. But they see profit and they know where to get it.Like they say if you can't beat them then join them

China help themselves by working hard with small help from overseas Chinese. The unsung hero of Chinese reform is the overseas Chinese who put the seed money in China


In the process of China's modernization, overseas Chinese have contributed a lot. From 1979 to 1997, more than two-thirds of the foreign capital that flowed into China came from overseas Chinese.

In the past decade, about 60 percent of foreign direct investment was introduced by overseas Chinese.


The Southeast Asia is unique in its huge Chinese diaspora — out of 40 million overseas Chinese, 30 million are found here. The economic elite in this region is mainly Chinese. These business entrepreneurs who generate an estimated GDP equivalent of about US$500 billion (a sum larger than the total outputs of many nations) are the main forces driving the dynamic growth that characterises the region as a whole — and they have played a crucial role in the rapid development of China’s economy.

When China began opening up to the outside world in 1978, the overseas Chinese in Southeast Asia were among those who reached there first. And today, some have become pioneers in the game, remaining among the largest sources of foreign direct investment in China. For their part, China has provided them with a new frontier of opportunities with low costs and huge untapped markets where they could venture out with new ideas and projects.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

ladioussupp said:

052D4 in the same place

View attachment 8637

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Agreed. I believe that is D4 in the hall and potentially pieces of D5 outside the hall.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Hendrik_2000 said:

I don't know where you get this idea from? People should not claim credit where credit is not due.After TAM the west including Japan boycott China. They stop investment and instituted the most stringent technical embargo that is still stand today. If you don't believe me google ITAR .

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This excessive hang up on who is "responsible" for china's economic and technological growth and their modernization is unnecessary, and reeks of baneful and ill placed pride.

Recognize that it was a monumentous achievement and that today the PLA is mostly self sufficient. But fixating on it just seems infantile imho.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Bltizo said:

This excessive hang up on who is "responsible" for china's economic and technological growth and their modernization is unnecessary, and reeks of baneful and ill placed pride.

Recognize that it was a monumentous achievement and that today the PLA is mostly self sufficient. But fixating on it just seems infantile imho.

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I don't see anything wrong with pride over China's achievement. It is people like you who is seriously suffering from massive complex. That always think that only the west is the best, who need serious introspection.

I just point out to seriously flaw argument that has no basis at all

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Hendrik_2000 said:

I don't see anything wrong with being pride for the achievement of China. It is people like you who is seriously suffering from massive inferiority complex that always think that only the west is the best who need serious introspection

I just point to seriously flaw argument that has no basis at all

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Complacency and hubris are unattractive qualities. As a chinese person I'd hope my fellow countrymen could focus more on continued self improvement rather than quibbling over who has the "credit" for helping China to where it is today, and making aggressive claims of existentialist superiority.


going back to lion's original reply, the fact is that without russian military purchases china wouldn't be where it is today. Even with an open market, the arms embargo and lack of access to russian (and other foreign) equipment would have set PLA modernization many years.
By all means be proud of their achievements, but also recognize the contributors that allowed them to reach this stage of advancement.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Hendrik_2000 said:

It is people like you who is seriously suffering from massive complex that always think that only the west is the best who need serious introspection.

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Come on, Hendrik. Not Bltizo.

When he says:

Bltizo said:

Recognize that it was a monumentous achievement and that today the PLA is mostly self sufficient.

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That is certainly not a sign the he believe that the west is only the best. In fact, over they years in interacting with him here on SD, I would say that Bltizo is very open to and well disposed towards China's achievements.

I believe you have misinterpreted his intentions.

I believe he was trying to ease the tensions that seem to building on the thread over this issue. Besides, that particular issue regarding all of the intricacies of how China has been able to advance itself so quickly is really off topic on this thread about the Type 052 destroyers.

Probably best that we diffuse the accusations and counter accusations regarding that before the Last Jedi comes along and suspends the thread.

Anyhow, just my opinion.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Bltizo said:

Complacency and hubris are unattractive qualities. As a chinese person I'd hope my fellow countrymen could focus more on continued self improvement rather than quibbling over who has the "credit" for helping China to where it is today, and making aggressive claims of existentialist superiority.


going back to lion's original reply, the fact is that without russian military purchases china wouldn't be where it is today. Even with an open market, the arms embargo and lack of access to russian (and other foreign) equipment would have set PLA modernization many years.
By all means be proud of their achievements, but also recognize the contributors that allowed them to reach this stage of advancement.

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The problem is some vivid china military watcher still living in Stone Age that thinks China still needs to buy Russian and Foreign arms to be modernise. If its some ignorant fool, I will say forget it but someone that watches China military so closely and even remember every unit and regiment so accurate can sprout some nonsense. I think something is very wrong of its mentality. By the way, blitzo. I am not referring to you.

Something to add, it the lack of foreign equipment may stall China modernisation but not stop. A very fine example will be the Y-20. The end result will be a more superior product. The same I can say for Al-31 engines, if without Russian supply those engine. China aero engine industry might be more ahead than now.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Bltizo said:

Complacency and hubris are unattractive qualities. As a chinese person I'd hope my fellow countrymen could focus more on continued self improvement rather than quibbling over who has the "credit" for helping China to where it is today, and making aggressive claims of existentialist superiority.


going back to lion's original reply, the fact is that without russian military purchases china wouldn't be where it is today. Even with an open market, the arms embargo and lack of access to russian (and other foreign) equipment would have set PLA modernization many years.
By all means be proud of their achievements, but also recognize the contributors that allowed them to reach this stage of advancement.

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You don't seem to get it do you?.The shipping yard in China improve a lot because they have thriving civilian ship building. Now ask the question why they improve ? I don't think it is because of Soviet help
The shipyard in China improve because all those Hongkong shipping magnate like sir Y K Pao and Tang start buying ships in China in the 80's And they hire the best naval architect and demand a stringent spec for quality control. That is what improve the Chinese shipyard not the Russian!

They have to have the best ship in order to get license and lower the insurance cost!