052/052B Class Destroyers

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

I think it is wrong to conflate military developments with economic ones. China has developed economically not because of foreign loans or investments (though FDI is certainly a part of it) but because of a regime of export-led growth following the Asian Development State model of Korea, Taiwan, etc. This was made possible by engaging the world market through using China's comparative labour advantage (and monetary sterilization) to achieve trade surpluses that would then be used to invest in infrastructure development.

China has developed militarily so it could better assert its economic interests which are, as a result of marketisation, becoming more and more connected with the rest of the world.

Purely in terms of military development, if there is anyone that China should even conceivably "thank," the Soviets are the only candidate: first for providing engineering know-how, military aid, and technical expertise before the Sino-Soviet Split (1960); secondly for selling off cheap gear to China immediately following the dissolution of the Soviet Union and during the 1990s. However this has nothing to do with the Russians being altruistic, they were not doing China favours for China's sake.


1. You cannot afford to modernize the military without the economic base to pay for it.

2. In 1950 the UK offered far better deals to sell Navy ships to China. But the Korean War put a stop to it.
 
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stibyssip

New Member
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

1. You cannot afford to modernize the military without the economic base to pay for it.

2. In 1950 the UK offered far better deals to sell Navy ships to China. But the Korean War put a stop to it.

obviously military developments are conditional on a strong enough economy to support it, and conversely a strong economy requires a strong military to protect its interests. this however is not equivalent to saying that military and economic developments are subject to the same inputs or happen in the same way.

i was unaware that the u.k. offered better deals on ships to china, it makes sense because britain was bankrupt after the second world war, but i was under the impression that the p.r.c. was not recognized as a legitimate state by most countries until after kissenger's visit in 1971.
 

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

i was unaware that the u.k. offered better deals on ships to china, it makes sense because britain was bankrupt after the second world war, but i was under the impression that the p.r.c. was not recognized as a legitimate state by most countries until after kissenger's visit in 1971.

UK was prolly the first Western country to switch recognition from ROC to PRC as the government of China in Jan 1950. This is possibly due to PRC's agreement to preserve HK's status quo as UK colony & lease territory at the time. UK's Royal Navy had to decommission vast numbers of warships after WW2 and China had wanted to purchase 48 decommissioned warships and 18 new builds (2 destroyers, 6 frigates, 10 mine sweepers). UK is said to have offered favorable pricing & terms on the ships in 1950:

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However, the Korean War put a stop to the deal. Two decades later, China and UK would enter another unsuccessful negotiation to export up to 200 Harrier jets in 1970s, and Luda 051S modernization in 1980s. Chinese sources also claim that China had negotiated to purchase the Type 42 destroyer in early 1980s, but I cannot find sources to verify this.

Although the Chinese Navy did receive aid from the USSR in the early days ("6-4 agreement"), the Navy modernizations in 1970s-1990s should give some credit to Italian, French, and Germans.
 
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asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Well everyone is building advanced AEGIS DDG, Japan, South Korea, Australia and India so it's no suprise China is building up its fleet of AEGIS DDG too

With 6 x Type 052C and 8 x Type 052D that's 14 very modern DDG China will have a good fleet for air defence
 

chuck731

Banned Idiot
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

obviously military developments are conditional on a strong enough economy to support it, and conversely a strong economy requires a strong military to protect its interests. this however is not equivalent to saying that military and economic developments are subject to the same inputs or happen in the same way.

i was unaware that the u.k. offered better deals on ships to china, it makes sense because britain was bankrupt after the second world war, but i was under the impression that the p.r.c. was not recognized as a legitimate state by most countries until after kissenger's visit in 1971.


After the communists came to power in China in 1949, there were strong fractions in both US state depepartment and Britain foreign office who saw the contradiction between the peasant nationalism of China communism and the revolutionary imperialist paragdim championed by the Soviet Union. These fractions believe the west should assiduously nurture Chinese communists as a force opposed to Soviet Union from nominally within the communist camp. This didn't come to an end until Korean War.
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

After the communists came to power in China in 1949, there were strong fractions in both US state depepartment and Britain foreign office who saw the contradiction between the peasant nationalism of China communism and the revolutionary imperialist paragdim championed by the Soviet Union. These fractions believe the west should assiduously nurture Chinese communists as a force opposed to Soviet Union from nominally within the communist camp. This didn't come to an end until Korean War.

After reading unrelated posts to Type 052 I thought I would bring the attention back to the topic just so you can derail it again!?

Let's get back on topic shall we
 

A.Man

Major
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

In The Making Of Next Carrier Battle Group

Jiangnan Changxing D1

20zy.jpg


1kp9.jpg


D2 & D3

k5lj.jpg


D4

q91o.jpg


D1 & D4

s75q.jpg
 
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andyhugfan

Banned Idiot
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

It's confirmed. It got the Yagi-style long range radar antenne, just like those on the type 052C. I was hoping for that new SMART-L style radar they were testing. Too bad...:(

type 052D.jpg
 

andyhugfan

Banned Idiot
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

There was an old 1990s article on German assistance to Chinese Navy shipyard:
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The article can no longer be accessed from the site, but its archived here:
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I had first mentioned the article in 2007:
http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/world-armed-forces/article-f25t-naresuan-class-specs-3370.html

IMO the Jiangwei class was China's MEKO frigate and the 054 was China's La Fayette frigate. It would be foolish to discount European assistance in Chinese navy technology in 1980s-1990s, or non-military tech assistance & training provided by Singapore, Thailand, and Malaysia after the Sino-Vietnam war in 1979. Japan provided various assistance and loans in 1970s-1980s, though it was also self serving with dependence on Chinese oil exports and hedge against possible renewed China-Soviet relationship during the Cold War. Ironically the pro-Taiwan factions in Japan was against providing loans to China's developmental projects at the time, but by 1990s Taiwanese businessmen were crawling allover Shanghai.

To say that China would be a giant NK without assistance from Soviets, US, and Japan is ignoring contributions from other countries toward China's development. In late 1970s, when Japan was debating on providing government loans to China, they were late to the game and competing with France, UK, Sweden, and Canada which had offered billions in loans. Anyways, this is OT and if we want to continue discussing it, we should move it to another thread.


I allways thought the type 054's look very much like the lafayette's.
 

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

I allways thought the type 054's look very much like the lafayette's.

In addition to external resemblance, the engines, radar, fire control, main gun, SAM, combat control system, ASW helicopter, helicopter handling system, etc. are French sourced and similar to what the French has on La Fayette frigates. I thought the PRC's reaction to French military sales to TW was rather muted on the La Fayette frigates for ROCN. But the French seemed to have sold more technology from the ship to China than Taiwan.

Anyways, this is the 052 thread and if you would like to discuss 054, we can move it to the 054 thread.
 
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