052/052B Class Destroyers

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

chuck731 said:

Hmmm, there seems to be no indication of a sonar radom on 052C's bulb (in any case the bulb seem too small to accommodate a full sized 2 CZ passive sonar array). Also there is no provision for a VDS array at all. This suggests 052C has pretty limited ASW capability.

Does China have any plans to produce a credible ocean going ASW escort? Lack of strong ship based ASW capability would seem to be a very glaring gap in PLAN's carrier escort force taking shape now. ASAIK, they have no effective stand off ASW weapon, they have no VDS capability, and they don't seem to have any thing comparable to large, highly sophisticated sonar arrays for passive 2 CZ anti-submarine survellance.

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052B/C/D all have the same bow sonar and have a TAS — no VDS, but TAS is the norm for most naval ASW suites anyway (one of the small square holes is the hole for the "wire/eel" style TAS

054A also has a bow sonar and the same TAS hole has 052 series, so FYI you are dramatically underestimating the PLANs quantity of ASW capable ocean going ships. How capable those sonar systems are, is another question.
Also, we non 054A and 052D ships aren't equipped with VLASROC weapons.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

kwaigonegin said:

Can anyone here speculate on what type of ASW suite/sonar the 052D will have? PLAN needs to concentrate on surface ASW because I believe that is where their weak link. Their ship AAW is pretty strong and so is their SSW however ASW is a tad behind IMHO.

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I think it's not likely that we'd get a lot of information on ASW detection capabilities. However, I am very interested to see if VL-ASROC or 91RTE2 type weapons are deployed in the new VLS.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

adeptitus said:

IMO the traditional "towed fish" is being replaced by "towed eel", which can be released with much smaller openings. The AN/SQR-20 MFTA for example, is only 3" in diameter. Such systems do not need a big ramp in the back.

The 052C is better compared to the Type 45. They lean more toward being AAW destroyers with limited multi-role capability, and its ASW capability is more for defense than offense. In comparison, the Japanese Takanami class ASW destroyer has a stronger ASW & ASuW suite, but more limited AAW (compared to Akizuki-class with FCS-3A).

While it'd be easy for us to point out a number of "missing" or "lacking" systems/features, we should also consider that space/weight on a warship is a premium, cost & feature creep usually lead to delays, and AAW destroyer's primary role is AAW and not ASW.

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Well takanami had only 8 AShMs, and its ASW weapon load will cut into its VLS count too, so in terms of armament I'd argue takanami is not dramatically more capable than 052C or type 45 (arguably I'd say 052Cs 8 400 km YJ-62s boasts the strongest anti surface capability). But in terms of sonar, takanami could well be more capable, but its difficult to ascertain sonar capability...


Also, we should note 054A is supposedly equipped with a VLASROC like weapon in its VLS (that infamous sign, remember). Combined with an ASW helicopter, a bow sonar, a TAS (the latter three which all other indigenous PLAN DDGs have too), we should reevaluate just how many ASW capable vessels PLAN has.

Jeff Head said:

Kwaigonegin if I had to guess right now about the ASW Sonar fit for the 52D, I would say it will be the same basic loadout as the Type 52C, with perhaps improved versions of that specific sonar and sensors.

The ASW weapons loadout (helo, rockets, torpedos) will be the same IMHO.

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052D has the new common VLS so I'd expect the VLASROC onboard 054A to be integrated on too.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Bltizo said:

... in terms of sonar, takanami could well be more capable, but its difficult to ascertain sonar capability.

Also, we should note 054A is supposedly equipped with a VLASROC. Combined with an ASW helicopter, a bow sonar, a TAS (the latter three which all other indigenous PLAN DDGs have too), we should reevaluate just how many ASW capable vessels PLAN has.

052D has the new common VLS so I'd expect the VLASROC onboard 054A to be integrated on too.

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VLASROC is mainly a defensive weapon. Their ranges are not that great and most subs with any type of heavy torpedo outrange the combined range of the rocket and the medium range torpedo they carry.

So, while the 52D and 54A may have VLASROC type weapons, the principle tools they have in their offensive ASW kit are, 1st their ASW helo and its own sensor suite, and 2nd, an offensive sonar suite that allow the vessel to locate potential targets on either side of the CZ to send the ASW helo out to prosecute at ranges in excess of the submarines own torpedoes at the least.

I believe the PLAN is improving its ASW capabilities significantly over the last 10 years, and will continue to do so. I believe they need better AW helos, and they need to build their vessels so they can carry two such aircraft that in the event of a serious prosecution, can keep on the sub by allowing the two helos to maintain the proximity and maximize the ability to maintain contact.

In addition, improving their offensive sonar power, signaling, and processing capabilities also need to continue to progress.

They are however making progress in these areas and cannot be cavalierly or lightly written off with respect to their growing capabilities.

Now, for surface vessels, the US bow sonar suite is fairly generally recognized as the strongest available. The Japanese versions are basically a system that duplicates that capability through Japanese manufacture...and, as time goes on, they are using their own processing to (at least from their perspective) better differentiate and interpret the signals they receive (which of course the US is continbually doing as well). I have to say that the UKs towed array, coupled with the Merlin helicopter specifically is probably the equal of the US or JMSDF capability as well.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

I don't disagree with any of the above points, and agree that VLASROC is primarily a defensive weapon (although I was more focused with the ship's "onboard" weapons systems, even if helicopters can be seen a an extension of the ship's offensive capability).

I'm a little dubious as to the assessments of various navies' sonar systems, and age isn't necessarily an indicator towards potency either (as the UK's sonar on type 23 frigates are supposedly so capable they're planning on installing it even on the type 26 GCS). The capability of relative helicopters also makes me wary, although it is universally accepted that the larger and longer ranged an ASW helicopter is, the more capable it is (more powerful surface search radar, more powerful dipping sonar, more torpedos etc), but for instance I'd wonder how a Ka-28 would compare with a seahawk.


What the PLAN needs is to keep developing their shipboard sonar (naturally -- and we won't be able to see this development apart from through the bows of ready-to-launch ships) and to develop an indigenous helicopter the size of seahawk and NH90 and mass proliferate it through their navy.

But my point of the last few posts remain, in regards to chuck's assertions, and that PLAN DDGs and FFGs (at least post 052 and post 053H) are not as ill-equipped for ASW as he may have thought.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Bltizo said:

I don't disagree with any of the above points, and agree that VLASROC is primarily a defensive weapon (although I was more focused with the ship's "onboard" weapons systems, even if helicopters can be seen a an extension of the ship's offensive capability).

I'm a little dubious as to the assessments of various navies' sonar systems, and age isn't necessarily an indicator towards potency either (as the UK's sonar on type 23 frigates are supposedly so capable they're planning on installing it even on the type 26 GCS). The capability of relative helicopters also makes me wary, although it is universally accepted that the larger and longer ranged an ASW helicopter is, the more capable it is (more powerful surface search radar, more powerful dipping sonar, more torpedos etc), but for instance I'd wonder how a Ka-28 would compare with a seahawk.


What the PLAN needs is to keep developing their shipboard sonar (naturally -- and we won't be able to see this development apart from through the bows of ready-to-launch ships) and to develop an indigenous helicopter the size of seahawk and NH90 and mass proliferate it through their navy.

But my point of the last few posts remain, in regards to chuck's assertions, and that PLAN DDGs and FFGs (at least post 052 and post 053H) are not as ill-equipped for ASW as he may have thought.

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There is one article out there that talked about how PLAN operates ASW wise.

due to the typical constraints on their helicopter force (largely number Z-9 force mtow about 4 tons, sprinkled with precious few heavier Ka28s ) in practice their light helicopter can only carry either dipping sonar or light weight torpedo. not both.

PLAN choose the sensor not the weapon for the helicopter. so Z-9 was tasked with dipping sonar and bouy most of time. it hunts the submarine working alongside of TAS of the frigate. once a target is IDed. The actual torpedo was delivered via ASW missile. with helo pass along targeting info to the ship via datalink.
their 054A frigates's VLS was designed to launch a ASROC type weapon (IMHO it was more likely a re-targetable guided missile in the fashion of the 91RE1 KLUB then a ballistic ASROC) . it was part of requirement in the beginning not a later add-on.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Bltizo said:

I don't disagree with any of the above points, and agree that VLASROC is primarily a defensive weapon (although I was more focused with the ship's "onboard" weapons systems, even if helicopters can be seen a an extension of the ship's offensive capability).

But my point of the last few posts remain, in regards to chuck's assertions, and that PLAN DDGs and FFGs (at least post 052 and post 053H) are not as ill-equipped for ASW as he may have thought.

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And I agree 100% with this statement. It is why I posted the info about the comparison between the Burke and the Type 52Cs sonars.

I personally believe that the sonar suite on the Burke IIA is significantly advanced over the Lanzhou...but I also believe the Lanzhou is not lacking in having a decent ASW capability that any SSN would be very wary of and respect greatly.

As it is, I also believe that the Type 23 and the Type 45 have systems that are the equal of the US capability in ASW warfare when compared on a ship to ship bases. When factoring in an entire task force's combined capability and network centric capability...the nod then goes to the US IMHO.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Bltizo said:

052B/C/D all have the same bow sonar and have a TAS — no VDS, but TAS is the norm for most naval ASW suites anyway (one of the small square holes is the hole for the "wire/eel" style TAS

054A also has a bow sonar and the same TAS hole has 052 series, so FYI you are dramatically underestimating the PLANs quantity of ASW capable ocean going ships. How capable those sonar systems are, is another question.
Also, we non 054A and 052D ships aren't equipped with VLASROC weapons.

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that's not true. 052B does not have TAS. It does have towed decoy. 054A and 052C have both TAS and towed decoy.

due to the typical constraints on their helicopter force (largely number Z-9 force mtow about 4 tons, sprinkled with precious few heavier Ka28s ) in practice their light helicopter can only carry either dipping sonar or light weight torpedo. not both.

PLAN choose the sensor not the weapon for the helicopter. so Z-9 was tasked with dipping sonar and bouy most of time. it hunts the submarine working alongside of TAS of the frigate. once a target is IDed. The actual torpedo was delivered via ASW missile. with helo pass along targeting info to the ship via datalink.
their 054A frigates's VLS was designed to launch a ASROC type weapon (IMHO it was more likely a re-targetable guided missile in the fashion of the 91RE1 KLUB then a ballistic ASROC) . it was part of requirement in the beginning not a later add-on.

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this is an important point to note. Even with the increasing number of helicopters coming into service the past couple of years, there is still a siginificant lack of suitable helicopters with PLAN. It's asking a lot for Z-9C to carry dipping sonar and sonar bouy. And then with Ka-28, you don't have enough fo them and their electronics are also dated. Naval Z-15 and Z-20 can't come fast enough.

Have you seen what ASW missiles they use? I keep reading about it but haven't seen any pictures of such missile.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Why won't China just build a Z-9 version for the navy that has a more powerful turboshaft engine like the WZ-9 turboshaft engine that's now used in the WZ-10 AH.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Franklin said:

Why won't China just build a Z-9 version for the navy that has a more powerful turboshaft engine like the WZ-9 turboshaft engine that's now used in the WZ-10 AH.

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It maybe happening soon.