052/052B Class Destroyers

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

steve_rolfe said:

Yes.........i realise there are lots of information on Chinese defence forums, which lets say are very wishful thinking.

i.e there have been a few images of the proposed type 055 looking like some sort of 'Zumwalt' alternative, clearly these are fanboy photoshop creations.

I only post items here which i think are realistic, and are from sources of military news articles, which have in the past proven to be more reliable.

Regarding the CIWS, this comes from a news page on the 'Liaoning' carrier, and suggests that the CIWS on the carrier would most likely also end up on being used on the type 055.

Here is a link to one of the articles i found on the same topic.....

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yeah, I see that article, but it doesn't really mean much. I actually did see the original report on Type 1130 on Chinese bbs. I think it's more or less accurate. I will have to go home and check, but I don't think 96% was used anwhere and I don't recall them specifically stating mach 4 missiles. Whenever you are using an article which specifies something the author saw, you will wrong into issues like this. So, I really caution you on sourcing.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

tphuang said:

yeah, I see that article, but it doesn't really mean much. I actually did see the original report on Type 1130 on Chinese bbs. I think it's more or less accurate. I will have to go home and check, but I don't think 96% was used anwhere and I don't recall them specifically stating mach 4 missiles. Whenever you are using an article which specifies something the author saw, you will wrong into issues like this. So, I really caution you on sourcing.

Click to expand...

The information is not just from that link, but several on the latest generation Chinese CIWS.
The performance of the system were claims made, as reported by a Chinese news report.

Here's another link:-

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

steve_rolfe said:

The information is not just from that link, but several on the latest generation Chinese CIWS.
The performance of the system were claims made, as reported by a Chinese news report.

Here's another link:-

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It's disappointing to know that the 052D will still employ the older 730. I don't know how much more juice the 1130s take but the article implied a possible reason is the ship may not generate enough power which in some ways is even more disappointing to hear.

One would think the engineers would ensure enough power left over for future weapons/sensors etc and now they don't even have enough to power what I think is just a relatively small increase in power consumption over the 730 and a miniscule percentage of overall power consumption relative to the entire ship.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

kwaigonegin said:

It's disappointing to know that the 052D will still employ the older 730. I don't know how much more juice the 1130s take but the article implied a possible reason is the ship may not generate enough power which in some ways is even more disappointing to hear.

One would think the engineers would ensure enough power left over for future weapons/sensors etc and now they don't even have enough to power what I think is just a relatively small increase in power consumption over the 730 and a miniscule percentage of overall power consumption relative to the entire ship.

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Yes.....i was somewhat surprised as well, to read that even the Type 052D was only being fitted with an older version of the Chinese CIWS system!
Mind you that new CIWS with its double ammunition drums looks a monster!

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

kwaigonegin said:

It's disappointing to know that the 052D will still employ the older 730. I don't know how much more juice the 1130s take but the article implied a possible reason is the ship may not generate enough power which in some ways is even more disappointing to hear.

One would think the engineers would ensure enough power left over for future weapons/sensors etc and now they don't even have enough to power what I think is just a relatively small increase in power consumption over the 730 and a miniscule percentage of overall power consumption relative to the entire ship.

Click to expand...

I think space was probably the issue. It's not like the front island which the 730 sits on has gotten dramatically larger, and type 730 is already a formidable gun ciws. Significantly modifying the existing 052C/D hull to accomodate the 1130 may not have been worth it.

And chances are the left over space and power from 052C was used for the new radar, the much greater number of VLS, the new main gun and the innumerable internal changes from 052C. I'd take any of the above over a relatively meaningless upgrade of the gun based ciws.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Bltizo said:

I think space was probably the issue. It's not like the front island which the 730 sits on has gotten dramatically larger, and type 730 is already a formidable gun ciws. Significantly modifying the existing 052C/D hull to accomodate the 1130 may not have been worth it.

And chances are the left over space and power from 052C was used for the new radar, the much greater number of VLS, the new main gun and the innumerable internal changes from 052C. I'd take any of the above over a relatively meaningless upgrade of the gun based ciws.

Click to expand...

But that was my point though.. I could be totally wrong BUT I don't think the 1130 is that much bigger nor does it take that much more power than the 730 relative to everything else in the ship at least not in a way where you actually have to sacrifice more missiles or make do with lesser sensors like you implied.... unless they are really really short on power.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

kwaigonegin said:

But that was my point though.. I could be totally wrong BUT I don't think the 1130 is that much bigger nor does it take that much more power than the 730 relative to everything else in the ship at least not in a way where you actually have to sacrifice more missiles or make do with lesser sensors like you implied.... unless they are really really short on power.

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May be less to do with space, weight, or power, but perhaps the design team felt better to have something proven considering the VLS and APAR are new, one less thing to worry about. Maybe after some service time on Liaoning would the 1130 be installed on a new 055 when that comes to fruition.

As for me, I'm wondering why they didn't split and have a FL-3000N / 730 combo instead. Although could be for the same reason, having the FL-3000N log some service time on the 056s before putting them on other ships.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

kwaigonegin said:

But that was my point though.. I could be totally wrong BUT I don't think the 1130 is that much bigger nor does it take that much more power than the 730 relative to everything else in the ship at least not in a way where you actually have to sacrifice more missiles or make do with lesser sensors like you implied.... unless they are really really short on power.

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I don't think they are short on power necessarily (otherwise all the other new additions are surprising), but rather short on space. Specifically, they couldn't be bothered rebuilding the bow area forward of the bridge to accomodate the (what I assume to be) significantly heavier and larger 1130.

I think they probably didn't think it was worth the additional modification (whatever that may be) to fit 1130 in place of 730.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

steve_rolfe said:

The information is not just from that link, but several on the latest generation Chinese CIWS.
The performance of the system were claims made, as reported by a Chinese news report.

Here's another link:-

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Click to expand...

they all get these information from each other. There is an original source of all these stories in China. The question is how accurate is the original Chinese article. Secondary English sources that quote Chines original source are generally not the greatest.

That's something we have to figure out when we dissect Chinese news. Chinese TV news report are not known to always be accurate.

As for Type 730 on 052D, I think it's probably space and power issue. That new PJ-38 main gun is taking up a lot larger space on 052D compared to 052C. The greater number of VLS will probably also take up more space than 052C VLS. Since the size and power of ship really did not change from 052C to 052D, PLAN properly figured the increased capability of Type 1130 isn't worth it.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

I couldn't agree more with TP's assessment, the extra weight and space needed for the larger CIWS is too much, especially since the 052 hull is already at the limits of its capacity with all the new and increased armament on the 052D.

However, the meaningful capabilities in engagement range and multiple-targeting that can be gained by the addition of FL-3000N type system to the ship's CIWS of the ship are definitely worth having.

What makes me wonder about the it's absence is that the PLAN actually has experience with gun-missile combinations from the Sov's they got from the Russians.

And its not like the Chinese have not carried out their own tests of such systems - witness the truck-mounted Type 730's with the missile launch boxes attached.

What gives? Why doesn't the PLAN marry guns to missiles?