052/052B Class Destroyers

plawolf

Lieutenant General
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Looking at the aerial views of the 052C and 052D side by side, the only major difference to the outline profile of the 2 classes that i can see, is that the stern of the 052D has been squared off.
What do members here think that this change was done for?.......i mean it doesnt add any real significant area to the helicopter pad.....just an observation!

Are you talking about how the hanger has been lowered by a deck except for the middle?

I think the primary reason that was done was because the original hanger was too tall and adversely affected the rearward field of view of the PARs. Just look at those drawings Jeff posted. You can see that from the stern, the 052C hanger blocked off a significant part of the PARs, whereas pretty much the entire arrays are visible on the 052D.
 

steve_rolfe

Junior Member
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Yes.....i suppose it all comes down in the end to the timeframe of the PLAN's carriers aspirations.
I imagine that they would start to build a major surface combatant such as a cruiser at a similar time to when they start building their own carriers.
I suppose the carriers if they are built, wont be built too long into the future, otherwise the escort fleet they have now, will be getting on a bit by the time new indigenous carriers are commisioned, and therefore will be somewhat out of sync technology wise! Do members here concur?
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Well, my own personal feeling is that, while the PLAN, and particularly PLAN fans, want this type of vessel badly, and their may be some initial specifications out there for such a vessel in the future...and they may be very real at this stage, like the US CGX design...that something like this will not be coming out in the near furutre.

Why?

Becuase the PLAN has just produced several more of their now proven Type 052C design which have not even been completely outfitted or commissione yet, and particularly because they have just launched their first, much improved iteration on that design, the Type 052D which had not been outfitted or put to sea and includes new technology for the PLAN which has not even been to sea and tested in a real environment yet. I believe the PLAN is comfortable with their prospets with the Type 052D, they are building a second with 3-4 more at least in line. But I also I believe they will wait until they see how these new radars and new VLLS design work in reality...at sea...before they ever start on the larger cruiser sized project.

Excellent point! However, I think it is still entirely possible that in this time, the PLAN might commission a pair of the new 055 cruisers fairly soon.

The reasoning for this is fourfold.

First, I think with all the PARs they have been building for the 052C/D, the Liaoning and all their AWACS, the Chinese are fairly confident that they have a good grasp of the technology. The PARs on the 052D are an evolution on the 052C's radars rather than a revolutionary change. The same goes for all the other weapons and technology.

In addition, let us not forget that they haven't just strapped all this new kit onto a destroyer straight from the lab, every new system or weapon we see on the 052D gas already been extensively tested on the PLAN's test ships and certified before the 052D design was finalized and construction completed.

Second, I think that while externally, the second batch of 052Cs look pretty much exactly like the original pair, there would have been significant internal changes done to the layout and systems fit, which would just represent improvements in technology since the first pair were built, and also incorporating any lessons learnt from their operation and especially long range deployments to Aden.

The large number of 052C+ and the speed that the 052D came out would suggest that the PLAN is fairly pleased and confident with the original design and any refinements, and also that the 052D may not be that far removed from the 052C+, despite all the obvious external differences. It would not surprise me much if when you discount the obvious stuff like the VLS and PARs, the 052C+ has more in common with the 052Ds than the original 052Cs. All of this reduces the risk factor in the 052D, as well as on the 055 if it uses mainly the same systems. That is probably why the first batch of 052Ds is 4 ships rather than the traditional 2 for test batches.

Third, I believe that the new cruisers will feature mostly the same weapons and sensors we have seen on the 052D, but on a bigger platform with more room for stuff. The biggest risk factor for the 055 design would not be the weapons or sensors, but rather with the platform itself.

The Chinese have never designed and built cruisers before, and short of actually doing it and putting the end product to the test, there isn't really another way, so why wait? The sooner they put a cruiser sized ship together and start operating it and getting feedback, the sooner they can learn from any shortcomings or mistakes and refine their technique to design better ships.

Four, timing is important. With the Liaoning handed over and construction of China's first indigenous carriers to start any time now, the PLAN needs to consider the formation and disposition of carrier battle groups, and cruisers would be pretty high on their shopping list. All of these projects are inter-connected, and the PLAN is not going to put off establishing a minimal carrier capacity of 2-3 carriers for a few years while they perfect a cruiser design. Having a slightly flawed cruiser is better than not having any at all. As already pointed out, since the main risk factor in going up to cruiser weight is the hull design, waiting a few years for the weapons and electronics to be perfected is not really going to mitigate that risk at all, so they might as well just get stuck in ASAP.

Another thing to consider with timing is the fact that warship contracts is a form of stimulus package for Chinese shipbuilders since commercial orders have dropped significantly during the world recession. Without big naval orders, the shipyards might struggle to make ends meet in a few years if the global economy does not pick up. If the shipyards are forced to cut capacity or workforce to adjust to the lean times, in a few years, the shipyards might actually be in a worse position to undertake a cruiser design.

The fall in civilian orders also means the PLAN can get their orders fulfilled far faster, almost certainly cheaper, and maybe even done to better specs/quality than if the shipyards had years worth of ships on the order books, because the shipyards would have excess capacity and manpower to start work right away, and maybe build more ships at the same time, and they might also put their best people on the job to keep their skills sharp, whereas before, those people might have been working on more lucrative civilian orders instead.

I expect the VLS will be hot launched and be able to carry multiple missile types.

I have to disagree on the hot launched part. With all the work they have done on the new CCL VLS, I really cannot see the PLAN starting over and introducing a 3rd type of VLS to their fleet at this stage. The CCL is the new universal VLS for the PLAN, and it's cold launched, but it should still be able to handle some hot launched missiles, especially if they are small.

As to whtether they will be up to the level of cooperative engagement (CE) the US now enjoys is yet to be seen. In addition, as to whether they have the multiple layers of network centric capabilities (ie. Space (sats), High atlitude maritime patrol aircraft, etc.) is also yet to be seen. Sounds like they several things the US is excelling in and holds a distinct advanatge in and threw them into the specs simply because they would like to have them. And maybe they will have them, but the US has been developing all of the infrastructure to make that possible for the last 20+ years and there are no shortcut to getting that all put together, working and in place so you truly can use that capability almost anywhere on earth.

With all due respect, we how many times have we heard the same 'there is no easy way/shortcut' line only for the Chinese to smash all expectations?

CE and network centric warfare works on the same principle as networking and high-end routers, and China is one of the biggest players in the wireless market with kit that can rival anything on the market made by western firms.

Obviously military grade datalinks and battlespace networks are not the same as civilian kit, but the basic principles and technologies do not change fundamentally, and I think this is a field that the Chinese will catch up far faster than many in the west would expect.

Already we are seeing large network-centric exercises involving PLA, PLAAF and PLAN assets, often working together. In fact, some of the key platforms and systems the PLA is fielding, like the 022 FACs and the vast array of new UAVs rely on battlefield networks or were designed specifically to help establish it.
 

Mysterre

Banned Idiot
I'm sure that the PLAN is working on a 10 ton cruiser/destroyer with 96 universal VLS launchers comparable to the Arleigh Burke class destroyers. Its not a matter of if but a matter of when it will come. But first they have to make the Type 052D work as this ship will lay the groundwork for the new classes of warships that China is going to build in the future.
Nobody on an internet forum has the luxury of being "sure" of anything, especially something as specific as a 10,000 ton PLAN cruiser/destroyer with 96 VLS cells. We may be 'confident' that the PLAN is likely working on a design that is heavier than the 052C/D, but beyond that we know next to nothing and are working purely off speculation.

I'm well aware of the old ships still in service in the PLAN today. But China in recent years has build and integrated so many new ships into her fleet that i feel it would be wise to take a breather and let the wave of modernization be digested before flooding the fleet with newer ships. And allow old technologies to mature and new technologies to be developed.
I think the technologies of the 054A, 056, and 052C are easily digestible by the PLAN, especially since the 056 features nothing new and the 054A and 052C have been around for a long time, and they have already had plenty of time to absorb these ships. The only new systems are featured on the 052D. The technologies being used on this ship will IMO serve as the trial run for their deployment in newer ships coming down the pipeline in the latter half of the decade. So while the pace of modernization has been brisk, IMO it is not a pace that is detrimental to the combat effectiveness of the PLAN.

The large number of 052C+ and the speed that the 052D came out would suggest that the PLAN is fairly pleased and confident with the original design and any refinements, and also that the 052D may not be that far removed from the 052C+, despite all the obvious external differences. It would not surprise me much if when you discount the obvious stuff like the VLS and PARs, the 052C+ has more in common with the 052Ds than the original 052Cs. All of this reduces the risk factor in the 052D, as well as on the 055 if it uses mainly the same systems. That is probably why the first batch of 052Ds is 4 ships rather than the traditional 2 for test batches.
We don't have enough information to conclude something so specific as that the 052C+ is closer to 052D than the baseline 052C, or that the latest batch of 052C's even deserves to have a designation like "052C+".

I have to disagree on the hot launched part. With all the work they have done on the new CCL VLS, I really cannot see the PLAN starting over and introducing a 3rd type of VLS to their fleet at this stage. The CCL is the new universal VLS for the PLAN, and it's cold launched, but it should still be able to handle some hot launched missiles, especially if they are small.
The default for CCL's is hot launch, not cold launch. Even the very name "concentric canister launcher" implies hot launch rather than cold launch. In fact a CCL module that can cold launch would require NON-CCL cells to be installed in place of CCL's.
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Third, I believe that the new cruisers will feature mostly the same weapons and sensors we have seen on the 052D, but on a bigger platform with more room for stuff. The biggest risk factor for the 055 design would not be the weapons or sensors, but rather with the platform itself.

The whole post was excellent, but if we have to distill why we may see 055 earlier than many people believe, that statement would be it.

I think 055 will share many subsystems and weapons with 052D, which immediately lowers much risk for the new ship. The only significant change would be the sheer number and perhaps sizes of various facilities onboard.

QC-280 is already aboard the new 052Cs and 052Ds so propulsion isn't a problem. And I don't think there's anything to justify an inability for Chinese shipyards to design and build a large surface combatant in the weight class of 12k tons.

The only real wild card, is an annoyingly persistent rumour that 055 may feature lasers, which brings down the legitimacy of the overall ship's existence somewhat.

---


Also, that French naval blog is interesting, it seemed to have gotten some stuff right about 052D long before it came out too...
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Becuase the PLAN has just produced several more of their now proven Type 052C design which have not even been completely outfitted or commissione yet, and particularly because they have just launched their first, much improved iteration on that design, the Type 052D which had not been outfitted or put to sea and includes new technology for the PLAN which has not even been to sea and tested in a real environment yet. I believe the PLAN is comfortable with their prospets with the Type 052D, they are building a second with 3-4 more at least in line. But I also I believe they will wait until they see how these new radars and new VLLS design work in reality...at sea...before they ever start on the larger cruiser sized project.

The PLAN has a number of dedicated test ships; 891 is currently equipped with the new APAR panel and and 4 of the new VLS modules (for a total of 32!). I expect both systems have undergone testing on land before putting them aboard a test ship.

Incidentally, pictures of 891 with these new toys came out not long before 052D was launched, meaning less of a buffer time between sea based testing and the actual in service date (whenever that ends up being) of the systems on 052D.
I think maturity of subsystems shouldn't be a problem for 055, at least not the ones they take from 052D.

In a segue, Jeff, does the USN have any dedicated test ships like 891/892/893?
 

A.Man

Major
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

052C-3, 150 Changchun finally commissioned

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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Excellent point! However, I think it is still entirely possible that in this time, the PLAN might commission a pair of the new 055 cruisers fairly soon.

The reasoning for this is fourfold....
All good points. Time will tell.

With the Liaoning handed over and construction of China's first indigenous carriers to start any time now, the PLAN needs to consider the formation and disposition of carrier battle groups, and cruisers would be pretty high on their shopping list. All of these projects are inter-connected, and the PLAN is not going to put off establishing a minimal carrier capacity of 2-3 carriers for a few years while they perfect a cruiser design. Having a slightly flawed cruiser is better than not having any at all. As already pointed out, since the main risk factor in going up to cruiser weight is the hull design, waiting a few years for the weapons and electronics to be perfected is not really going to mitigate that risk at all, so they might as well just get stuck in ASAP.
Actually in the 052D and 052C they already have vessels that are very capable of escorting the Liaoning. I would say one 052C and one 052D with a couple of 054As would be more than capable of getting the job done (and you better add a Type 093 SSN in there at least) and in a way that would be a match for almost any other nation on earth, outside of the US with a Ticc CG, two Burke DDGs and a Virginia class SSN...but even then, a the PLAN CSG would represent a very potent force that would have to be respected.

I have to disagree on the hot launched part. With all the work they have done on the new CCL VLS, I really cannot see the PLAN starting over and introducing a 3rd type of VLS to their fleet at this stage. The CCL is the new universal VLS for the PLAN, and it's cold launched, but it should still be able to handle some hot launched missiles, especially if they are small.
Good points, but, like Mysterre, I thought that the basic technology behind the new VLS was more hot launch than cold. I am basically saying that this new technology VLS on the 52D will be what they employ on the larger vessel when that time comes...but also believe they will test it with their new PARS for some time before committing to a new build.

With all due respect, we how many times have we heard the same 'there is no easy way/shortcut' line only for the Chinese to smash all expectations?

CE and network centric warfare works on the same principle as networking and high-end routers, and China is one of the biggest players in the wireless market with kit that can rival anything on the market made by western firms.
My point did not have nearly so much to do with the IT, encryption, data packeting technology, servers, etc., as it did with having the hard assets in place in space and around the world to make use of them. A world-wide network of military grade satellites, with redundancy. Backing that up with a similar major portion of the earth's surface covered at all times by long-loiter, stealthy, capable maritime surveillance aircraft that are airborne at all times and able to provde the backup network should the satellite network be defeated. That is the type of infrastructure I am speaking of and that takes time. Time to develop it, time to test it, and then a lot of time to get it in place. There are simply no shortcuts there other than to have the development plans, test plans, deployment plans including basing strategies around the world, launch schedules, technology in place etc., etc. to be able to put that all together.
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

I'm really digging the 052Cs new tint. It's got that metallic silver-grey look. Very military.
 
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