052/052B Class Destroyers

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Funny you should mention FL3000, because I suspect that is exactly what they will put on the hanger.

If they were going to put a '730 on the hanger, why did they not just install it when the ship was still in the fitting shed like the front '730 was, and all the '730s on all 052Cs built thus far?

Having an FL3000 launcher on the hanger would further enhance the self and fleet defence capabilities of the 052D. The removal of the after VLS from the front of the hanger also frees up significant amounts of room that should be more than enough to accommodate an automatic reload system with spare FL3000 missiles at the front of the hanger.

The US Mk41 can quad pack ESSMs, but that does not negate the benefit of having Searam launchers on USN DDGs.
I agree 100%. And for this reason would like to see RAM launchers added to all Burke class DDGs...like the S> Koreans did with the Se Jong. But it has not happened yet.

The RAM launchers right now are on the carriers, the LHAs, the LPDs, and the LCS vessels, among a few others. I'd like to see them, for the same reasons we discuss here, added to the Tico cruisers and the Burke destroyers...as well as the Zumwalt DDGs when they come out.

I hope you are right on the 052D and I suppose in a few weeks we will know.
 

Lion

Senior Member
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Funny you should mention FL3000, because I suspect that is exactly what they will put on the hanger.

If they were going to put a '730 on the hanger, why did they not just install it when the ship was still in the fitting shed like the front '730 was, and all the '730s on all 052Cs built thus far?

Having an FL3000 launcher on the hanger would further enhance the self and fleet defence capabilities of the 052D. The removal of the after VLS from the front of the hanger also frees up significant amounts of room that should be more than enough to accommodate an automatic reload system with spare FL3000 missiles at the front of the hanger.

The US Mk41 can quad pack ESSMs, but that does not negate the benefit of having Searam launchers on USN DDGs.

If they are really going to put FL3000 missiles on 052D. Why don't they install the RAM when still in drydock? Just like how they do it for 056 Corvette??
 

jackliu

Banned Idiot
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

I agree 100%. And for this reason would like to see RAM launchers added to all Burke class DDGs...like the S> Koreans did with the Se Jong. But it has not happened yet.

The RAM launchers right now are on the carriers, the LHAs, the LPDs, and the LCS vessels, among a few others. I'd like to see them, for the same reasons we discuss here, added to the Tico cruisers and the Burke destroyers...as well as the Zumwalt DDGs when they come out.

I hope you are right on the 052D and I suppose in a few weeks we will know.

Whats the main advantage and drawbacks of RAM vs CIWS?
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Whats the main advantage and drawbacks of RAM vs CIWS?
They are complimentary systems.

RAM stands for rolling airframe missile. It is a system that holds 21 missiles that are essentially the most modern sidewinder missiles with a Stinger missile seeker added so you also get the very good infrared targeting of the stinger, with programming and hardware upgrades to allow the missile to shoot down incoming missiles of all sorts, from sub-mach sea skimmers, to multiple-mach missiles. It has a range of about 6 miles.

The Phalanx Close in Weapons System (CIWS) is a rotating six barrel gun system (20 mm in US Service) that fires 4,500 rounds per minute out to a range of 2 miles to target incoming missiles by basically putting up a wall of steel for them to collide with.

As stated, the two systems compliment each other and that is why on Carriers, large amphibious assault ships, etc. both system are used in tandem. Usually at least one of each on each end of the ship.

More Recently, the SeaRAM system has been developed which uses the guidance system of the Phalanx (the White Dome) and couples an 11 round RAM missile magazine with it.

So, the RAM has a very good hit rate in tests and has greater range, and with two of the 21 missile systems aboard, you have 42 missiles for close in anti-missile work.

The Phalanx CIWS also has a very decent hit rate and is more of a last ditch defense. (At two miles a high mach missile is covering that amount of ground in literally seconds time). One of the draw backs of the CIWS is that if you score a hit too late, even though you may destroy the incoming missile, its momentum will carry the wreckage of the missile itself into the ship just the same, doing less damage than a intact missile, but capable of inflicting significant damage just the same.

So hitting the incoming missile at some good distance from the ship (1/2 mile or more) is most desirable.

All of this is a part of a defense in depth strategy against aircraft and missiles that will usually include, in a group of ships with CGs and/or DDGs to escort the Carriers or large Amphibious ships, the following missile types:

Standard Missiles (VLS on DDGs and CGs) for mid to long range intercepts out to 200 miles.
- SM-1 MR out to 25 miles (out of service with US Navy, allies still use)
- SM-1 ER out to 40 miles (out of service with US Navy, allies still use)
- SM-2 MR out to 100 miles (US Navy principle MR missile)
- SM-2 ER out to 200 miles (US Navy Principle ER missile)
- SM-3 out to 300 miles (US Navy Ballistic Missile Defense missile)
- SM-6 out to 150 miles (New US Navy Dual seeker missile, initial block, initial operation 2013)
Evolved Sea Sparrow Missiles (VLS of Box launched on CGs, DDGs, Carriers & Amphibs) for mid range intercepts out to 30 miles.
RAM (on Carriers Ampohibs, etc.) for short range out to 6 miles
CIWS (on carriers, amphibs, DDGs and CGs) for very short range out to 2 miles.
 
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re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Can anyone enlighten me regarding the reason the PLA decided to roll out 4 additional 052Cs instead of just waiting for the 052D. Kind of goes against their standard practice of building 2 ships of each class to test out new technologies, evaluate, train, and then progress to a new design until they have one that they are satisfied with.
 

joshuatree

Captain
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Type-052D-003.jpg

Great pic. If they actually also redid the exhaust stack with more RCS reducing features (like the 056 stack), that would make the upgrades look complete.


Can anyone enlighten me regarding the reason the PLA decided to roll out 4 additional 052Cs instead of just waiting for the 052D. Kind of goes against their standard practice of building 2 ships of each class to test out new technologies, evaluate, train, and then progress to a new design until they have one that they are satisfied with.

Perhaps the are satisfied with the 052C having matured and needing such assets. The 052D is just in the test trialing pair phase.
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

I really hope hey add a SMART-L style radar to the Type 052D like on the Dokdo and Type 45 DDG, these old "TV style aerials" radars look no good to me!

As for numbers of Type 052D built that is a interesting question, the 2 in production will go to SSF and 4 more will go to NSF so that's 6 but if China decided to add another DDG flotilla to each fleet that would mean 12 x DDG which would mean total Type 052D numbers to be around 18! Having seen Type 054A production run that is certainly not out of the question, off course there will be upgrades along the way

In the long run we may see China add 2-3 flotillas of FFGS, 2 flotillas of DDGs and 1 flotilla of Cruisers to each fleet 24 surface combatants each

And if they added 3 x LPDs, 1 x LHD and 1 x Carrier to each fleet that would be a formidable navy
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Can anyone enlighten me regarding the reason the PLA decided to roll out 4 additional 052Cs instead of just waiting for the 052D. Kind of goes against their standard practice of building 2 ships of each class to test out new technologies, evaluate, train, and then progress to a new design until they have one that they are satisfied with.

There are as many possibilities as one can dream up; maybe some of 052Ds subsystems were delayed so PLAN settled for getting an extra 4 052Cs to make up the numbers in the mean time, maybe hulls 3-6 of 052C are similar to 052D in terms of interior (so are a "transition"), we don't know if the ships were ordered in this sequence years ago or relatively recently.

Personally I do not find the fact there were 4 follow on 052Cs before D a surprise, but rather they seem to be mass producing 052D, with three hulls (including the one already in the water) identified already. PLAN must be very satisfied with the design and maturity of the subsystems.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

I really hope hey add a SMART-L style radar to the Type 052D like on the Dokdo and Type 45 DDG, these old "TV style aerials" radars look no good to me!

I've been wondering too, the type 517 and SMART L are different radars. SMART L is a long range volume search radar in L band, and is more logically used with X band PARS, the latter of which has better performance for shorter range targets (and illumination). Type 517 is a VHF radar with good performance against stealthy targets, while the 052Cs SAPARS is S band, like SPY-1 and SAMPSON, which is a compromise between L band and X band, good long range volume and shorter range discrimination. I think that's why aegis ships only carry SPY-1 without a volume search radar, and the reason some people have said SMART L aboard daring is not really necessary when they already have SAMPSON.
The type 517 on the other hand I not a volume search radar but an anti stealth radar, so replacing it with something like Sampson won't make much sense

And if they added 3 x LPDs, 1 x LHD and 1 x Carrier to each fleet that would be a formidable navy

Such a navy would would be the "critical mass" I think for the PLAN and once they reach such an orbat it wouldn't need to be expanded much further.

Perhaps the are satisfied with the 052C having matured and needing such assets. The 052D is just in the test trialing pair phase.

Actually three 052D hulls are currently in some stage of construction at JNCX, including the one already launched, so clearly PLAN are not doing the "trial two hulls first" approach before.
 

hmmwv

Junior Member
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Can anyone enlighten me regarding the reason the PLA decided to roll out 4 additional 052Cs instead of just waiting for the 052D. Kind of goes against their standard practice of building 2 ships of each class to test out new technologies, evaluate, train, and then progress to a new design until they have one that they are satisfied with.

Actually that is still the case with the 052C. Starting with Jiangwei I 4 ships were launched to test the hull then mass produced another 10. Two 054s were built to test the hull before 16 054As were mass produced. Two 052Bs were produced leading to 6 mass produced 052Cs. 052C is meant to be mass produced from the get go, the only reason that there is a five year break is because of the World Expo, JN was forced to stop shipbuilding and move to JNCX and military ship production couldn't restart until 2009. If JN didn't have to move I bet the six 052Cs are already serving the PLAN for more than two years. Remember the 052D won't become operational until sometime in 2014. PLAN desperately needs good AA ship so they can't afford to wait any longer.
 
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