052/052B Class Destroyers

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

There was one occasion in the history of the US when people did take up arms in a political cause: 1861-1865.

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Right! And look how they are judged by history: misguided protectors of old-fashioned Southern culture at best, traitors at worst, but never their self-proclaimed mission of states and preserving the right to own slaves.

Regardless of one's noble intentions, if a citizen take up arms against the U.S. government today, they will be branded a traitor by everyone, condemned, and punished severely. No one will come to their aid. Most likely their own partners/comrades will be betray them, as Terry Nichols did Timothy McVeigh. There is no honor or glory to be had in rebellion against the U.S. government, so those nutjub Tea Partiers need to get a grip on reality for their own sake. They need to let go of the fantasy of armed rebellion guarding democracy because everyone knows they don't have balls to actually do it. And since everyone knows it's just hot air and empty threats, the threats are meaningless. Clearly Speaker Nancy Pelosi, et al. were not intimidated to pass health care reform.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Governments are not afraid of armed individuals, they are more afraid of organised groups.

Even if a popular uprising were to topple existing governments, you will find the upstart groups spending equal if not more effort fighting amongst each other than against the existing government that they are trying to overthrow, this is just human nature (and has been witnessed frequently throughout history). Not every revolution will have a Washington to lead, most likely not in today's political and social climate. The American revolution is almost like a special case.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Well, you learn something new everyday!
Who would have guessed that the humble Chinese 052 Class would have has such a big role in the American revolution, not to mention popular civil uprisings everywhere..........

But I think that's enough and the discussion should return to the ships more humdrum operations.

Anyone who disagrees can enjoy the Luhu's facilities as a Cruise ship for their forthcoming vacation.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Geographer said:

All this talk about a well-armed populace being the guardian of democracy sounds good but it's never been implemented, even when there were and are ongoing violations of human rights.

Where were the gun-toting guardians of democracy when US citizens of Japanese descent were being rounded up and put in prison camps during World War II? Where were the gun-toting guardians of democracy when blacks were being lynched across the American South with collusion from local government? Where were the gun-toting guardians of democracy when poor Americans were being forced by their government to fight and die in Southeast Asia? Where are the gun-toting guardians of democracy when harmless Americans are being put in prison for smoking marijuana? Based on American history from the last 100 years, the constant threats of armed rebellion against the American government in defense of liberty are laughable.

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If armed citizenary garantee democracy,
then, afghanistan is the most democratic country on earth.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

plawolf said:

I kinda doubt they will still call it an 052 if it was 10,000t.

In all likelihood, the 052D would not be significantly larger or different from the 052Cs in terms of general layout. The main improvements will be in terms of the radars, internal systems and new universal VLS.

In a way, I have a feeling that the 052D may turn out to be another small batch experimental class similar to the 052B. The PLAN would not have ordered so many 052Cs if they knew a much better 052D was right around the corner.

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Another way of looking at it is some technologies for 052D was delayed so they had to buy a few more 052Cs to fill the gap.

If the 052D is to be the new gold standard PLAN DDG, I would have expected the second patch of 052Cs to only be 2 ships, which would have been more than enough to tide the PLAN over till 2016 even with the Varyag expected to become operational around than and the new destroyers needing a few years after that to become combat capable.

I would not be surprised at all if this rumored 052D turns out to be a completely new class of destroyer instead of an incremental improved on the 052C. The big 052C second batch order could thus be explained as the PLAN expecting the new class to need a good amount of time for testing and shake downs and would not be ready for operations or mass production for several years.

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Hmm... we'll see. I hate to bring back the debatable projection A man posted a few months back, but from it showed generally 052D will be produced in large numbers but won't be significantly larger than 052C, and a larger 10k ton DDG/CG will be built concurrently to 052D as well.

Obviously we'll see in coming years if that projection was anything other than BS, but right now my chips for 052D will be that it will externally feature a new VLS, the 130mm gun and possibly changing ciws a little. I do doubt if they will fit the new large APAR being tested aboard 891 on 052D especially if it is of similar size (just look at USN troubles with fitting AMDR to flight 3 burkes).
In terms of air defence it will be nice if they could fit different ranged SAMs in 052D compared to 052Cs limited (but still very long range) HQ-9, and likely overhaul the combat system as well. I'd be surprised if they fit a completely new radar, 346 is already world class anyway.
Basically, 052D imho will likely make incremental improvements to 052C's already formidable AAW capability, but with a (hopefully new universal) VLS that can hold LACMs, ASROC, smaller ranged SAMs as well to make 052D truly multirole. An arleigh burke lite if you will.

Anyway there are rumours one of the two DDGs in hudong's construction hallways (the one at earlier stage of construction) is 052D, and overall 052C production will end at 6 (so original batch of 2, and second batch of 4 "052C+"s). Interesting times ahead either way.

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to put a picture to it, this (obviously not official) image popped up a few weeks ago showign what 052D could look like in comparison to 052C, 054A, and is a realistic representation I believe (adding a new SMART-L like radar, changing ciws a bit, adding new universal VLS in a medium number of 64 compared to heavy DDG 90+ or cruiser numbers of 120+ cells), but retaining the type 346 radar, single hangar and overall hull.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

What's the difference in function between the SMART-L-esque radar and the Sino-Aegis to warrant having both on a ship?

edit: nvm.. "ultra wide bandwidth"?

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

PikeCowboy said:

What's the difference in function between the SMART-L-esque radar and the Sino-Aegis to warrant having both on a ship?

edit: nvm.. "ultra wide bandwidth"?

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Not so much bandwidth as the band itself. L-band and UHF-band radars are usually volume search (or early warning only) and are good to varying degrees for detecting stealth aircraft due to these aircraft being optimized to defeat X- (and maybe C-) band radars, such as you would find on other aircraft and fire control radars. The presumed S-band on the AESA is good for more detailed tracking and mid-course guidance for outbound missiles.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

OT

i.e. said:

If armed citizenary garantee democracy,
then, afghanistan is the most democratic country on earth.

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The Cuban population is very well armed to deter a new Bay of Pigs episode or other forms of aggression.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

If off topic political discussions are not stopped I will be forced to lock thread/give out 4th of July vacations.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer





What I found this trip from my old Chinese Navy friend.