052/052B Class Destroyers

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Come on now. Not all media is propaganda. To make propaganda you need an agenda. I think most biases are caused more from ignorance rather than propaganda. These are people after all. I generally find the bbc to be among the more open-minded western media. They usually report statements from both parties. After the chaos in Tibet a few years back (when that anti-cnn site appeared) the bbc misreported along with most other western news outlets, but a few days later they retracted and apologized for their coverage.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

J-XX said:

anyway, this is off topic. i dont want to get in trouble from the mods.

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Hehehe...best thing you said in that entire rant.

There is no doubt that all press has their leanings...but I will take a free press, not owned or controlled by the state, over a purely state owned and operated press any day irrespective. The conflict of interest and the control by the "party" that owns it is obvious for anyone to see. The very name tells you the story...CCTYV inded.

As to the reports in the west about China, again, I will state the same thing I said earlier.

Jeff Head said:

"I have not read or seen on NBC, CBS, Fox, ABC, CNN, or BBC any articles or indications about China "failing" soon. To the contrary, most articles are about their rapid rise in terms of technology, manufacturing, trade, finance, etc."

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So, when I say something like that, it is a free press lecture...but when you say that CCTV is unbiased, it is the purest of truths, eh? LOL! Whatever floats your boat my friend.

We clearly feel differently and that the great thing about the human condition. We each have our own minds and whoever and wherever we are, we can think as we please.

As it is...back on topic which, among other 52 class vessels, is the:

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Man that is a nice picture of the Type 052C, standing nice and tall!

we are not far away from see ex-Varyag, 2 x Type 052C DDGs, 1 x Type 054A FFGs, 1 x Type 095 SSN, Type 903A Replenishment tankers and airwing of J15s sailing the seas, would be a great photo oppourtunity

and that is a brand new entire task force

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

I hope that a Chinese carrier battle group will visit Helsinki in the future.
But IMHO the ex-Varyag will more probably be escorted by Type 051Cs rather than the Type 052Cs, as it will probably be assigned to NSF.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Lintuperhonen said:

I hope that a Chinese carrier battle group will visit Helsinki in the future.
But IMHO the ex-Varyag will more probably be escorted by Type 051Cs rather than the Type 052Cs, as it will probably be assigned to NSF.

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Who's to say no Type 052C's will be assigned to the NSF? They're building a bunch of them after all. The 051C is vastly inferior to the 052C in terms of being able to resist a saturation missile attack and I will be very surprised if the 051C is used to escort the carrier instead of the 052C. In terms of battlegroup makeup, I would guess something more along the lines of 2-3 052C's, 4-6 054A's and 1 or 2 093/095's. Remember that the 052C does not have a medium range air defense missile like the ESSM, and will have to rely on its 054A's to provide that particular layer of antimissile protection. These ships will also likely be used in the ASW role with their TAS lines coming out the back, so I can see significantly more 054A's being mixed into a battlegroup than 052C's.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Mysterre said:

I would guess something more along the lines of 2-3 052C's, 4-6 054A's and 1 or 2 093/095's. Remember that the 052C does not have a medium range air defense missile like the ESSM, and will have to rely on its 054A's to provide that particular layer of antimissile protection. These ships will also likely be used in the ASW role with their TAS lines coming out the back, so I can see significantly more 054A's being mixed into a battlegroup than 052C's.

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I expect the Carrier, two 052Cs, two 054As and one SSN. They would add another DDG or FFG in there as an escort for the replenshment vessel when she is off away from the carrier, such that when they are allm together you have the Carrier, the replenshment vessel, two 052Cs, three 054As and one SSN. That's a very complete group of eight vessels that could travel long distances in pursuit of PRC interests.

In ten years, the PLAN may have two or three of these at sea at any one time. That's a huge game changer in the Western Pacific and is why the Australians, the Japanese, the Indians and the Koreans are all building up to have at least one or two similar groups at sea themselves. But even with the JSF, the only ones that will come close to the capability of the PLAN groups (outside of the US of course) wuill actually be the Indians. The JSF will be a challenge, but does not have the legs or the range of capability that a J-15 has, particularly when the PLAN begins operating full CATOBAR carriers.

Of all of those nations, only the US, the PLAN and the Indians are planning on CATOBAR.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Mysterre said:

Who's to say no Type 052C's will be assigned to the NSF? They're building a bunch of them after all. The 051C is vastly inferior to the 052C in terms of being able to resist a saturation missile attack and I will be very surprised if the 051C is used to escort the carrier instead of the 052C. In terms of battlegroup makeup, I would guess something more along the lines of 2-3 052C's, 4-6 054A's and 1 or 2 093/095's. Remember that the 052C does not have a medium range air defense missile like the ESSM, and will have to rely on its 054A's to provide that particular layer of antimissile protection. These ships will also likely be used in the ASW role with their TAS lines coming out the back, so I can see significantly more 054A's being mixed into a battlegroup than 052C's.

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True, no medium range AD. Do you think would be a good idea to put 2-4 HQ-10 (18 tubes) on 052C+ ?

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Jeff Head said:

I expect the Carrier, two 052Cs, two 054As and one SSN. They would add another DDG or FFG in there as an escort for the replenshment vessel when she is off away from the carrier, such that when they are allm together you have the Carrier, the replenshment vessel, two 052Cs, three 054As and one SSN.

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You are thinking like the USN. This will not work for the PLAN. Perry's would not be used in the air defense roll and are primarily ASW platforms, while 054A's would be called upon to perform both air defense and ASW. While a US CVBG could get away with a couple FFG's the PLAN will need more.

antiterror13 said:

True, no medium range AD. Do you think would be a good idea to put 2-4 HQ-10 (18 tubes) on 052C+ ?

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Yes, at least one launcher where the rear 730 currently is. But this would not be useful for fleet defense, only as CIWS for the 052C itself.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Mysterre said:

You are thinking like the USN. This will not work for the PLAN. Perry's would not be used in the air defense roll and are primarily ASW platforms, while 054A's would be called upon to perform both air defense and ASW. While a US CVBG could get away with a couple FFG's the PLAN will need more.

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Actually, I was not thinkling like the USN, I was thinking about general Carrier defense, irrespectvie of nation.

The Perry was never designed with carrier defense as a primary role. It was more for Phibron and convoy escort, SAG duties, etc. But, with its excellent ASW capabilities and SM-1 missiles at the time, it was also used in the CSG role. Mostly though, that was for the Spurance class and the Ticos of the day. Now, the Perr's have been nuetered and have no AAW outside of CIWS, or ranged ASuW capabilities.

The 054A is a better multi-role design and will serve well in the Carrier escort role and three of them overall will be sufficient when coupled with an SSN and the two Type 052Cs IMHO.

As they say, "the proof is in the pudding," and we shall just have to see what the PLAN ends up doing. In a few years we shall know.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Yes I would also agree, 2 x Type 052C DDGs and maybe 2 x Type 054As FFGs, i didnt count one escort for the Replenishment tanker which could fall behind in which case a escort would be required and a single SSN

all in all 7-8 vessals, all modern and world class carrier strike group

Lintuperhonen said:

I hope that a Chinese carrier battle group will visit Helsinki in the future.
But IMHO the ex-Varyag will more probably be escorted by Type 051Cs rather than the Type 052Cs, as it will probably be assigned to NSF.

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PLAN has

170 and 171 Type 052C in SSF
150, 151, 152 and 153 will go to ESF
172 and 173 will go back to SSF

thats 8 x Type 052C DDGs

next batch of 8 x Type 052Ds will be

117, 118, 119 and 120 all 4 going to NSF
then 154, 155, 156 and 157 will go to ESF

so all 3 fleets will have new generation destroyers of Type 052C/D, and the point to note is the 1st Type 052D will be in 2016, around the same time ex-Varyag goes fully operational, so the escort could be Type 052D but will likely but Type 052C due to the experience with the ship