052/052B Class Destroyers

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

A.Man said:

You just believe what you want to believe. Your source, like CNN or BBC or other biase providers, had said many times that China would have been falling many years ago. Check your fact first-China, in term of dollars, exported much more softwares than India.

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I have not read or seen on NB, CBS, Fox, ABC, CNN, or BBC any articles or indications about China "failing" soon. To the contrary, most articles are about their rapid rise in terms of technology, manufacturing, trade, finance, etc.

Those news site...and many, many more that are lesser known, may have a normal, journalistic what we call "liberal" bias, but they are all free, open press. Thye are, even with their problems and I admit they have some, still the most free and factual reporting in the world and most feree of bias than any state owned and run press in any country in the world, precisely because they are free and not dependant on or force to toe the state libne because the "State" )pick a totalitarian or one-party country) owns them.

Anyhow, I think most of them are reporting the very things you say, that China's exports are up over just about every other nation in the world.

My ppint is again, that those numbers do not necessarily tell the technological expertise story. Give them more years...and particularly if the money coming in is applied freely to the research and development by a free market where new ideas are king, as opposed to what R&D is directed by the state alone...and they (China) will rapidly rise in their technological abilities. Heck, they already are. In military matters if you watch this like I do, over the last ten years what used to be a 30 year gap has narrowed significanlty in most areas and gained parity in others.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

A.Man said:

You just believe what you want to believe. Your source, like CNN or BBC or other biase providers, had said many times that China would have been falling many years ago. Check your fact first-China, in term of dollars, exported much more softwares than India.

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They need to come here and read more often. Sino defense forum provides more accurate info than CNN and BBC when come to things regarding china and her military development.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

A.Man said:

You just believe what you want to believe. Your source, like CNN or BBC or other biase providers, had said many times that China would have been falling many years ago. Check your fact first-China, in term of dollars, exported much more softwares than India.

Click to expand...

By no mean am I trying to look down on China. I personally grew up in China and share more common ideologies with Chinese people than most Westerners, although I'm Italian myself. Sometimes I even think of myself as Chinese.

All I'm trying to point out is that Chinese industrial software sector is still too small. You do have a good point, which China has one of the largest software export in the world. But just like other sectors, those are still subcontracted by Western companies. Usually the case is, the same for India, is that a Silicon valley company already made the core algorithms and architectures, the rest of the "packaging" and coding is sent to Dalian/Tianjin/Shenzhen and Bangalore. Most Chinese/Indian IT companies lack software that are developed from scratch. Yes, the fiscal value of the exported software is very big, but they are not truly Chinese, neither in brand name or the core, without either would be meaningless for China. Although this is changing rapidly, but the improvements are still in the entertainment and casual oriented mass market, aimed at average users. The more famous ones include Tencent QQ/OICQ, Baidu and Alibaba. These software and data-bank architectures are very sophisticated and advanced, but nothing in the industrial sector comes close in scale and sophistication.

The area China lacks behind the most is industrial software applications. Those include applications for CNC machines, supercomputers, shipping/warehouse management, robotics and many other high-tech ones. Currently the market is predominantly dominated by German Siemens, Japanese conglomerates like Mitsubishi and Hitachi, and American GE. You never hear any Chinese software in those areas, perhaps not even in the mass market sector.

None of us here, especially Jeff and I, are trying to bash or criticize China in an offensive way, but just pointing out the problems in China's favor. I have noticed that the Chinese forum members are extremely protective of China-related topics during discussions, especially in those areas mentioning China is behind in something. Whenever someone mentions that China is behind in something, there's always a member or two that instantly jumps out to say that China is the best, usually providing a link to back it up. This is alright, as it is human nature. The same also happens with members in the India-related threads. We all know that truths aren't always necessarily the nicest sounds to hear. All we are doing here is discussing China's future both in military and civilian sectors, not to criticize China of anything. The older people become the nicer they are. An old fossil like Jeff (forgive me) is one of the nicest members in this forum. At his age all he can give are constructive criticisms.

After all, this is a harmonious forum, where people can exchange ideas and info, not a back alley where people enter trash talking contests like those on MTV. The reason we're here to chat is because we don't believe in the craps CNN and Fox give us. I just hope that members like lion, antiterror and A.Man can understand that my intentions are friendly.

Cheers

---------- Post added at 11:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:46 AM ----------

Add onto the post.

When I mention the industrial sector, I also meant to include the military applications as well. China needs to buff up its software wings in Chengdu and other military hardware companies. As of right now, it's mostly small scaled developments. If China had software wings like those in Lockheed, Boeing, Northrop and Raytheon, even if the physical hardware is not that great, the software could still manage to make it perform 120%.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Vini_Vidi_Vici said:

...The older people become the nicer they are. An old fossil like Jeff (forgive me) is one of the nicest members in this forum. At his age all he can give are constructive criticisms.

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Dude, lol! You will find my friend that when you become 40, 40 does not look so old. When ypou become 50., it does not look so old, even if by that time, like me you already have several grandkids.

Now I am 56...guess what, it does not look so old to me, as it did when I was 25.

What I have found, is that you get there faster than you ever thought possible and when you do, you pretty much feel the same, but the people who were adults when you were 25 or 30, look more and more like young children, and even many act that way too. hehehe.

Such is life!

I'm glad to be 56 and am looking forwad to the next 25-30 years too. Whenever the good Lord wants me, He can have me and I do not fear or shrug from it...I learned that too through the years. We all die...sooner or later...so no need to get all excited and afraid of it like it is unusual or something...because it is not. Just spend the time learning, loving family (wife, your kids, your grandkids when they come) helping others in need, and defending truth and liberty and morality when you see it violated. People who do as much of that as they can generally are satisfied and happy in the end.

Now, as regards software or just modern military equipment and applications in general. It is extremely impressive how quickly the Chinese are developing. But once the hardware is developed and in place, then comes the laborious process of figuring out how to use it effectively and develop the policies and procedures and plans to do so...and that takes time and experience and there is simply no shortcut for it.

For example naval air aviation. A nice carrier is impressive. Great strike fighters to operate off of that carrier are impressive...but what is most impressive is when they all work together like and intricate dancer, making few if any mistakes. And like a dancer that devotes years to honing their body and movements to work that way, so it is with such military applications like this.

But you never will get there unless you start and have the equipment to work with.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Jeff Head said:

Dude, lol! You will find my friend that when you become 40, 40 does not look so old. When ypou become 50., it does not look so old, even if by that time, like me you already have several grandkids.

Now I am 56...guess what, it does not look so old to me, as it did when I was 25.

What I have found, is that you get there faster than you ever thought possible and when you do, you pretty much feel the same, but the people who were adults when you were 25 or 30, look more and more like young children, and even many act that way too. hehehe.

Such is life!

I'm glad to be 56 and am looking forwad to the next 25-30 years too. Whenever the good Lord wants me, He can have me and I do not fear or shrug from it...I learned that too through the years. We all die...sooner or later...so no need to get all excited and afraid of it like it is unusual or something...because it is not. Just spend the time learning, loving family (wife, your kids, your grandkids when they come) helping others in need, and defending truth and liberty and morality when you see it violated. People who do as much of that as they can generally are satisfied and happy in the end.

Now, as regards software or just modern military equipment and applications in general. It is extremely impressive how quickly the Chinese are developing. But once the hardware is developed and in place, then comes the laborious process of figuring out how to use it effectively and develop the policies and procedures and plans to do so...and that takes time and experience and there is simply no shortcut for it.

For example naval air aviation. A nice carrier is impressive. Great strike fighters to operate off of that carrier are impressive...but what is most impressive is when they all work together like and intricate dancer, making few if any mistakes. And like a dancer that devotes years to honing their body and movements to work that way, so it is with such military applications like this.

But you never will get there unless you start and have the equipment to work with.

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You're only 56? THat's nothing! You have the knowledge and authority of someone much older.
(And how do you even have time for all this model building when you're this young is beyond me )

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Maggern said:

You're only 56? THat's nothing! You have the knowledge and authority of someone much older.
(And how do you even have time for all this model building when you're this young is beyond me )

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Well, I'm pretty busy, particularly given .

I am working full time in a very technical displine, I have five kids (all grown now) and nine grandkids whom I love to spend a LOT of time with...and building models is one of those things I also do with a couple of my grandsons. I have a wonderful wife of 34 years and we try and do a lot of things. We just finished a revision in our home where we took an open concept living area that we had used for a study and turned it into a closed-in liberary, taking up the carpet and putting down wood floor there and in our entry hall. With my disabilities, she (and with the help of our two sons a couple of times) did mst of the heavy lifting.

I teach a 2-hour primary class to 10-11 year olds at our church each Sunday. And I try to keep uo on all of my Naval/Military sites and political sites.

Take grandkids or the wife and/or sons or daughters to the movies pretty much each week on Friday or Saturday.

And try and keep my lawn mowed and weed ate...lol! Keepin busy lets youy accomplish a lot, gives you a sense of purpose and things to feel good about...and, they keep you out of trouble. Hehehe...not that I've ever had too much problems in that area anyway.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Jeff Head said:

Well, I'm pretty busy, particularly given

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....

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Say what! malignant cancer and its aftermath?! No one should go through that. Your fighting spirit is amazing considering I drop dead for a simple cold . Hope the cancer and its effect disappear from you forever. I thought bd popeye didn't look a day over 20 but now he looks like a 40 year old compare to you.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Jeff Head said:

I have not read or seen on NB, CBS, Fox, ABC, CNN, or BBC any articles or indications about China "failing" soon. To the contrary, most articles are about their rapid rise in terms of technology, manufacturing, trade, finance, etc.

Those news site...and many, many more that are lesser known, may have a normal, journalistic what we call "liberal" bias, but they are all free, open press. Thye are, even with their problems and I admit they have some, still the most free and factual reporting in the world and most feree of bias than any state owned and run press in any country in the world, precisely because they are free and not dependant on or force to toe the state libne because the "State" )pick a totalitarian or one-party country) owns them.

Click to expand...

oh please. save us from you free media lectures jeff.
all media is propaganda. american, british, russian, indian, chinese, european, australian, qatar, iranian, etc
every media outlet chooses to side with the country they are from and with the agenda of the country they are from.

how about BBC using pictures of dead bodies from the iraq war and using it to show what the syrian government did?
how about all western media outlets only telling the side of the 'rebels' in the libyan and syrian crisis and spewing all kinds of propaganda against the incumbent government that dont choose to bend over to the west.
so called 'free' media dont want to tell both sides of the story.

how about the western media completely ignoring bahrain murdering its people using saudia tanks to stop a revolt?
why does western media ignore that? because bahrain and saudia arabia are stooges of the west and thus the western media ignores their atrocities. even if they mention those bahrain revolts, its about a 2 minute report whereas libya and syria gets 24/7 coverage that covers only one side, the side the west wants to be in power.

the russian and chinese media supports the side that have russian and chinese interests.

westerners think any media that dont support them are pure propaganda, al jazeera used to be hated by the west because they were anti-western, but when al jazeera became pro-western, the west started to love that network because it turned into a anti-chinese network that supported the views of westernern governments.

western media likes to expose chinese human rights, but completely ignores the human rights violations committed by the west from slavery, to exterminating entire native populations, to using agent orange in vietnam, using depleted uranium in iraq, prisoner buse int guantanomo bay and abu ghraib, to supporting ruthless saudi dictators, to supporting iraq using chemical weapons against iraq, to soldiers killing innocent children in iraq and afghan wars, etc etc etc etc etc.

dont think just because western media are not owned by the state that they are better than state media. chinese state media is probably the most neutral of any media. western media support western agendas and russia today support russian agenda. chinese media tells both sides of the story even if it is detrimental to chinese agenda. go watch CCTV english and you will see for yourself.

western media is all anti-chinese, all they do is drum up the china threat theory or china collapse theory.
all media is propaganda whether it is state or non-state. they all support the agendas of the country they are from.

there are no permanent friends or allies, there are only interests in this world.

anyway, this is off topic. i dont want to get in trouble from the mods.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

J-XX said:

oh please. save us from you free media lectures jeff.
all media is propaganda. american, british, russian, indian, chinese, european, australian, qatar, iranian, etc
every media outlet chooses to side with the country they are from and with the agenda of the country they are from.

how about BBC using pictures of dead bodies from the iraq war and using it to show what the syrian government did?
how about all western media outlets only telling the side of the 'rebels' in the libyan and syrian crisis and spewing all kinds of propaganda against the incumbent government that dont choose to bend over to the west.
so called 'free' media dont want to tell both sides of the story.

how about the western media completely ignoring bahrain murdering its people using saudia tanks to stop a revolt?
why does western media ignore that? because bahrain and saudia arabia are stooges of the west and thus the western media ignores their atrocities. even if they mention those bahrain revolts, its about a 2 minute report whereas libya and syria gets 24/7 coverage that covers only one side, the side the west wants to be in power.

the russian and chinese media supports the side that have russian and chinese interests.

westerners think any media that dont support them are pure propaganda, al jazeera used to be hated by the west because they were anti-western, but when al jazeera became pro-western, the west started to love that network because it turned into a anti-chinese network that supported the views of westernern governments.

western media likes to expose chinese human rights, but completely ignores the human rights violations committed by the west from slavery, to exterminating entire native populations, to using agent orange in vietnam, using depleted uranium in iraq, prisoner buse int guantanomo bay and abu ghraib, to supporting ruthless saudi dictators, to supporting iraq using chemical weapons against iraq, to soldiers killing innocent children in iraq and afghan wars, etc etc etc etc etc.

dont think just because western media are not owned by the state that they are better than state media. chinese state media is probably the most neutral of any media. western media support western agendas and russia today support russian agenda. chinese media tells both sides of the story even if it is detrimental to chinese agenda. go watch CCTV english and you will see for yourself.

western media is all anti-chinese, all they do is drum up the china threat theory or china collapse theory.
all media is propaganda whether it is state or non-state. they all support the agendas of the country they are from.

there are no permanent friends or allies, there are only interests in this world.

anyway, this is off topic. i dont want to get in trouble from the mods.

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I agree with most of what you said, but Chinese media is not neutral by any stretch of the imagination. I don't know what you're smoking there. They may report neutrally on non-domestic issues better than Western media, but they will certainly not (in general) report negative news about the central government, or heads will roll.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Vini_Vidi_Vici said:

.

Cheers

---------- Post added at 11:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:46 AM ----------

Add onto the post.

When I mention the industrial sector, I also meant to include the military applications as well. China needs to buff up its software wings in Chengdu and other military hardware companies. As of right now, it's mostly small scaled developments. If China had software wings like those in Lockheed, Boeing, Northrop and Raytheon, even if the physical hardware is not that great, the software could still manage to make it perform 120%.

Click to expand...

It is a myth that China only buy or steal technologies from other countries.

Have you ever heard that Boeing using Boeing engines on its jetliners?

Does Airbus airplanes install Airbus jet engines on A380's?

GM has bougth some Honda engines for its cars.

Why China must use its own parts for everything?

---------- Post added at 03:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:33 AM ----------

J-XX said:

oh please. save us from you free media lectures jeff.
all media is propaganda. american, british, russian, indian, chinese, european, australian, qatar, iranian, etc
every media outlet chooses to side with the country they are from and with the agenda of the country they are from.

how about BBC using pictures of dead bodies from the iraq war and using it to show what the syrian government did?
how about all western media outlets only telling the side of the 'rebels' in the libyan and syrian crisis and spewing all kinds of propaganda against the incumbent government that dont choose to bend over to the west.
so called 'free' media dont want to tell both sides of the story.

how about the western media completely ignoring bahrain murdering its people using saudia tanks to stop a revolt?
why does western media ignore that? because bahrain and saudia arabia are stooges of the west and thus the western media ignores their atrocities. even if they mention those bahrain revolts, its about a 2 minute report whereas libya and syria gets 24/7 coverage that covers only one side, the side the west wants to be in power.

the russian and chinese media supports the side that have russian and chinese interests.

westerners think any media that dont support them are pure propaganda, al jazeera used to be hated by the west because they were anti-western, but when al jazeera became pro-western, the west started to love that network because it turned into a anti-chinese network that supported the views of westernern governments.

western media likes to expose chinese human rights, but completely ignores the human rights violations committed by the west from slavery, to exterminating entire native populations, to using agent orange in vietnam, using depleted uranium in iraq, prisoner buse int guantanomo bay and abu ghraib, to supporting ruthless saudi dictators, to supporting iraq using chemical weapons against iraq, to soldiers killing innocent children in iraq and afghan wars, etc etc etc etc etc.

dont think just because western media are not owned by the state that they are better than state media. chinese state media is probably the most neutral of any media. western media support western agendas and russia today support russian agenda. chinese media tells both sides of the story even if it is detrimental to chinese agenda. go watch CCTV english and you will see for yourself.

western media is all anti-chinese, all they do is drum up the china threat theory or china collapse theory.
all media is propaganda whether it is state or non-state. they all support the agendas of the country they are from.

there are no permanent friends or allies, there are only interests in this world.

anyway, this is off topic. i dont want to get in trouble from the mods.

Click to expand...

Haha, those people don't know what they are! They think they are free, but also believe that they are more equal than others!

They are many members in this forum using Dish Networks. If you have it, please go on channel 265-CNTV English Channel. You believe that you mey like the news source.