052/052B Class Destroyers

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

hmmwv said:

China has acquired DN80/GT25000 manufacturing techniques and it's generally believed that follow on 052C ships are powered by the domestically produced GT25000s. The problem with the engine is that they are more powerful than LM2500, so install two is inadequate, but in stall four would be overkill. Hence China's push to get the indigenous QC185 (LM2500 class) gas turbine certified for naval use, there were reports in 2010 that the engine is already in use but it made no sense.

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what about the copy of the of the MTU 20V956TB92 made by Shaanxi diesels? I believe they are paird with the GT250000s in CODOG layout on the Luyang IIs.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

What is the point that all these modern warships have these very expensive VLS systems on board ? If their SAM's only have a 120 to 170km reach while fighter jets can fire anti-ship cruise missiles from more than 200 to 300km away. It means that these jets are beyond their SAM's reach.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

In real war scenarios the jets may not have the capability to fire missiles at full range (lack of guidance, whatever) and the fog of war means you don't know where your enemy is exactly anyway, and extending your defense umbrella, even if your enemy is firing stand off weapons, gives you longer reaction time too.
Not to mention these long range SAMs will be useful in countering supersonic AShMs when they're flying high in cruise flight, and AShMs in cruise generally.

---------- Post added at 10:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:13 AM ----------

In real war scenarios the jets may not have the capability to fire missiles at full range (lack of guidance, whatever) and the fog of war means you don't know where your enemy is exactly anyway, and extending your defense umbrella, even if your enemy is firing stand off weapons, gives you longer reaction time too.
Not to mention these long range SAMs will be useful in countering supersonic AShMs when they're flying high in cruise flight, and AShMs in cruise generally.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Franklin said:

What is the point that all these modern warships have these very expensive VLS systems on board ? If their SAM's only have a 120 to 170km reach while fighter jets can fire anti-ship cruise missiles from more than 200 to 300km away. It means that these jets are beyond their SAM's reach.

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VLS allows rapid, multiple engagements that traditional arm launcher could not achieve. Bear in mind that it was when the Soviet doctrine calls for swarms of AShM from multiple directions against US taskgroup formations. And save for the dedicated VLS systems, modular VLS system allows for flexible loadout, so the same ship could carry a more offense-oriented package rather than air-defense package if need be.

Or, VLS could reduce the clutter on the deck which would be favorable in terms of reducing RCS signature - of course if the munitions are too large (usual cases for Soviet/Russian AShM) then that's only applicable with platform large enough to bury the whole system under the deck.

The actual range of the AShM have to consider the availability of over-the-horizon target acquisition from other platforms; if not then it'd be height at which the launch platform launch its missile/s. Though that could still be beyond the maximum range of SAM, it should be enough for the fire control radar to pick up the launch vehicle, and direct fighter intercepts.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

i really doubt most fighters can engage from 300+km away, yeah thats the max. range but u wont engage from that range

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

They obviously won't want to engage at their missiles theoretical max range, but they would neither need to leave anywhere as much of a safety margin as AAMs in order to ensure a good KP.

Unlike fighters, naval ships are relatively static targets in that even if they detect an AShM launch at source, there is only a relatively short distance they can cover in the time it takes for the missile to reach them.

The biggest obsticle to long range shots are targeting and FoF IDing at such ranges as well as the fact that few nations actually have AShMs with that sort of range.

However, if a nation does have 300km+ ranged AShMs, then much of their training will be about firing those missiles from as far away as possible.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

if the missile has a range of 300km and the fighter launching the missiles has a radar range much less than that then you will be firing the missile in the direction where u think u got a contact then relying on the missiles seeker to lock on to its target once it is within range, either that or u will have a AWACS which will provide mid-course update to the missiles seeker

either way, its not a very accurate way of doing things, if the missile sees a target which is bigger, it usually thinks bigger is better, it can switch lock from the smaller ship to a larger one, even if that one happens to be a supply/cargo ship, yet the smaller ship could be a destroyer which is much more high value target, thats how thw Atlantic Conveyer got hit in 1982 during Falklands war by a air-launched Exocet

unless u have a fighter who has a powerful radar to go with the long range missile, this whole long range 300km+ thing seems bit bogus to me

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

asif iqbal said:

if the missile has a range of 300km and the fighter launching the missiles has a radar range much less than that then you will be firing the missile in the direction where u think u got a contact then relying on the missiles seeker to lock on to its target once it is within range, either that or u will have a AWACS which will provide mid-course update to the missiles seeker

either way, its not a very accurate way of doing things, if the missile sees a target which is bigger, it usually thinks bigger is better, it can switch lock from the smaller ship to a larger one, even if that one happens to be a supply/cargo ship, yet the smaller ship could be a destroyer which is much more high value target, thats how thw Atlantic Conveyer got hit in 1982 during Falklands war by a air-launched Exocet

unless u have a fighter who has a powerful radar to go with the long range missile, this whole long range 300km+ thing seems bit bogus to me

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If the nation is far enough along technically, they can rely on AWACS, local targeting helo or sub, sensors seeded in a potential enemies path, satellite, etc. to acquire target location. Then, dpending on the missile, they can fire and foget, letting the missile acquire the primary (or secondary) target when it gets in the general vcinity.

Problem is, the target is probably going to have all sorts of defenses, from long range to medium range to short range active defenses (ie. Standard Missile, ESSMs, RAM, and then Phlanx), as well as other EW, chaff, decoy defenses as well. The EW environment alone may dictate that the attacker get much closer.

Lots of variables that will depend on the ordinance being carried, the strength, accuracy, position and nunber of locator sesnors to allow targeting, the weather, the targets sensor suite, defensive armament, and EW and other defensve systems.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Franklin said:

What is the point that all these modern warships have these very expensive VLS systems on board ? If their SAM's only have a 120 to 170km reach while fighter jets can fire anti-ship cruise missiles from more than 200 to 300km away. It means that these jets are beyond their SAM's reach.

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Only just saw this, and would just like to add that in most cases, FFGs and DDGs would not be operating alone when going up against hostiles with long range AShMs. Usually, they would be moving in as a task group or carrier battle group or amphibious assault group etc.

Remember that the primary mission of these escorts is to escort the higher value assets like carriers, LPDs/LHD etc, and the enemy's primary target will be these high value assets, and not necessarily the individual escorts themselves.

The attackers may have 200km AShMs while the escorts only have 150km SAMs, but if the escorts form a screen 60km in front of the carriers, then the enemy strike package will need to fly within range of the SAMs of the escorts in order to target the carrier.

In addition, with modern networking battlefield systems and low RCS ship designs, it is possible for escorts to be running 'silent' and relying on sensory data gathered by other friendly assets. With the strike package also likely running silent to minimize the chances of detection, it is entirely possible, maybe even likely, that an enemy strike package could blunder into the SAM envelope of an escort without realizing it. If that escorts suddenly lights up it's own active sensors, and with the multiple target engagement capabilities that VLS allows, it could potentially take out the entire strike package before any of the planes can react.

Remember that war is not like chess where you can see everything and make your battle plans accordingly. Even with all of our modern techno-sorcery, the fog of war is as dense and opaque as it ever was, and battlefield results can rarely if ever be accurately predicted with a Top Trumps style comparison of manufacturer ranges and characteristics.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

plawolf said:

The attackers may have 200km AShMs while the escorts only have 150km SAMs, but if the escorts form a screen 60km in front of the carriers, then the enemy strike package will need to fly within range of the SAMs of the escorts in order to target the carrier.

In addition, with modern networking battlefield systems and low RCS ship designs, it is possible for escorts to be running 'silent' and relying on sensory data gathered by other friendly assets. With the strike package also likely running silent to minimize the chances of detection, it is entirely possible, maybe even likely, that an enemy strike package could blunder into the SAM envelope of an escort without realizing it. If that escorts suddenly lights up it's own active sensors, and with the multiple target engagement capabilities that VLS allows, it could potentially take out the entire strike package before any of the planes can react.

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Which produced the Soviet doctrine of attacking US Carrier groups in multiple waves, using regimental sized forces to hammer their attack home.

They expected to lose a lot of aircraft, but knew if they could get through to and sink or severally damage the carrier, they would win out in the balance.

So, initial waves would specifically target the picket lines and hammer them until they were gone, while behind them came another wave to attack the inner group and deplete their SAMs and damage or destroy the escorts there, while behind that came another large wave to hit the carrier itself.

The Soviets intended to produce enough supersonic Backfire bombers and associated ASuW missiles to do just that.

The US on the other hand kept increasing the range and numbers of VLS cells dedicated to AAW...and had the carriers establish their F-14s with thir Phoenix missiles far out from the carrier in order to interdict and attrit the bomber forces before they could get into range.

Having 4 F-14s, each carrying 6-8 missiles accompanied by a Hawkey, 300nm out from the carrier on each major threat axis was a huge force multiplier. The Phoenix had a 110nm range so they could begin engaging incoming attackers a good 400+nm (thats nautical miles) out from the carrier, well before they could attack the carrier or its inner group...and far enough out to help the picket vessels as well.

Now, with the Super Hornet-AMRAAM combo, the US has lost almost a hundred miles off of that total distance. But then again, the Soviets fell and the current Russian forces cannot muster the regimental attack flights necessary...and neither can anyone else at this point.