052/052B Class Destroyers

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Weak ASW capability (but probably better than 052 versions).

Superior ASUW capability (Mach 2.5 SSM's with 170+ km range and 300 kg warhead, 130 mm guns). That's why the Chinese bought them...

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Jeff Head said:

Depending on the requirements of the mission, there are many times when CSGs and SAGs are combined...that's my only point. I am putting together a CSG that will do that...mainly to show off the PLANs high value and most effective units. the Sov 956EMs are modern, very worthy combatants, and if they were involved in a CSG where additional SAG and ASW assetts were needed, they could easily be a part of such a group on a one-off basis.

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I take the simple (simplistic?) view that a PLAN carrier will be escorted with the destroyer flotilla it is homeported with, i.e. 4-6 Type 052C/D and 4 Type 054A.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

franco-russe said:

Weak ASW capability (but probably better than 052 versions).

Superior ASUW capability (Mach 2.5 SSM's with 170+ km range and 300 kg warhead, 130 mm guns). That's why the Chinese bought them...

---------- Post added at 11:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:53 PM ----------



I take the simple (simplistic?) view that a PLAN carrier will be escorted with the destroyer flotilla it is homeported with, i.e. 4-6 Type 052C/D and 4 Type 054A.

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IMHO, 4 top DDGs and 4 top FFGs is too many for a single carrier. Maybe two DDGs and 3 FFGs along with one SSN for a normal deployment, along with a repleneshment vessel/group and its escort.

But, down the line, as the PLAN nas more varied requirements, they will find opportunity to combine the capabilities of both a SAG and a CSG from time to time.

Generally the US is using one Ticonderoga CG and two Burke DDGs along with an SSN. The US really should have a couple of FFGs in there too but the OHP FFGs have had a lot of capability taken away and do not perform too many CSG escort duties now...though with their ASW capabilities they still could, particularly if they had a MLEP...something on the order of what the Australians have done with their Perrys.

My US Navy CSG will be centered on the USS Enterprise and will include two Ticos, a Burke, two LCS outfitted in the ASW role, and two SSNs, a LA Class Flight III and a Virginia Class. I will include the New Jersey BB-62 (even though she is in reserve/museum status), and the Iwo Jima LHD-7 for a really varied combination. That'll be ten vessels and represent kind of a real show-boat group for the US Navy.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Jeff Head said:

IMHO, 4 top DDGs and 4 top FFGs is too many for a single carrier. Maybe two DDGs and 3 FFGs along with one SSN for a normal deployment, along with a repleneshment vessel/group and its escort.

But, down the line, as the PLAN nas more varied requirements, they will find opportunity to combine the capabilities of both a SAG and a CSG from time to time.

Generally the US is using one Ticonderoga CG and two Burke DDGs along with an SSN. The US really should have a couple of FFGs in there too but the OHP FFGs have had a lot of capability taken away and do not perform too many CSG escort duties now...though with their ASW capabilities they still could, particularly if they had a MLEP...something on the order of what the Australians have done with their Perrys.

My US Navy CSG will be centered on the USS Enterprise and will include two Ticos, a Burke, two LCS outfitted in the ASW role, and two SSNs, a LA Class Flight III and a Virginia Class. I will include the New Jersey BB-62 (even though she is in reserve/museum status), and the Iwo Jima LHD-7 for a really varied combination. That'll be ten vessels and represent kind of a real show-boat group for the US Navy.

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If you consider the limitation of non-CAT launch carrier air power and without organic aerial tanker support, the bulk of attack power will fall onto the battlegroup's destroyers, frigates and subs (if SLCM is equipped).

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

MwRYum said:

If you consider the limitation of non-CAT launch carrier air power and without organic aerial tanker support, the bulk of attack power will fall onto the battlegroup's destroyers, frigates and subs (if SLCM is equipped).

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I disagree -- flankers taking off from a ski jump carrier steaming at 30 knots into the wind could still take off a useful load; say two AAMs and 2 AShMs like YJ-83, which can definitely outrange the likes of sunburn. If it's in the rear position even more can be carried.

There was a small scan from a russian magazine floating around a while ago saying that during tests of the Su-33, they found it could take off with half payload with kuznetsov going at thirty knots in forward positions, and full payload in rear position or something of the sort. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

I think people have been underestimating the potential strike power of a fully loaded varyag with J-15s, focusing only on how they would be used for A2A. Sure the planes won't be able to take off with full payloads or fuel compared to a cat -- but remember how great the payload and range of the flanker is in the first place. Not exactly something to turn your nose up at, especially if they are equipped with small diameter smart bombs or stand off missiles (which have either been shown at airshows or are already in service).

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At least, that is until we get 052D and the new cruiser with LACM and ASCM cells... if the new common VLS is able to handle them.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

There is another expensive and possibly dangerous option -- rocket assisted takeoff. Obviously not suited for routine operation, but perfectly workable in wartime.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

A Good Look Of Jiangnan #6 & #7 052C's

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Bltizo said:

I disagree -- flankers taking off from a ski jump carrier steaming at 30 knots into the wind could still take off a useful load; say two AAMs and 2 AShMs like YJ-83, which can definitely outrange the likes of sunburn. If it's in the rear position even more can be carried.

There was a small scan from a russian magazine floating around a while ago saying that during tests of the Su-33, they found it could take off with half payload with kuznetsov going at thirty knots in forward positions, and full payload in rear position or something of the sort. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

I think people have been underestimating the potential strike power of a fully loaded varyag with J-15s, focusing only on how they would be used for A2A. Sure the planes won't be able to take off with full payloads or fuel compared to a cat -- but remember how great the payload and range of the flanker is in the first place. Not exactly something to turn your nose up at, especially if they are equipped with small diameter smart bombs or stand off missiles (which have either been shown at airshows or are already in service).

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At least, that is until we get 052D and the new cruiser with LACM and ASCM cells... if the new common VLS is able to handle them.

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It'd be accurate if those were Western-made engines, not those Russian or Chinese made ones, which have inferior gas mileage ratings. Thus until it could be proven otherwise that's where it is.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

@ MwRYum, I'm replying in the PLAN carrier thread, as discussion would be quite OT in the 052 thread.

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From A Man's photo, it looks like the two hulls are indeed going to be identical. So it will be a total of 2+6 052C before moving to 052D, rather than 2+4 052C.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Do we know for sure that 052D will be built there?
If so, do we know for sure they would start building it right away? what if there is a one year hiatus while they get used to a new design?
How do we know it is going to be a further development of 052 hull with the given powerplant? how do we know it is not going to be a whole new design - new hull and new powerplant? say 055 class or whatever we're gonna call it.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Old Pic? 052C radar H/LJG346 (before external heat and protection shield were installed)