F-35 Joint Strike Fighter News, Videos and pics Thread

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Bipartisan politics perhaps?

They're trying to do the right thing, and that requires looking a long way into the future, when they switched from the B to the C, there was very serious talk of canceling the B, as it was felt to be holding up the A and the C. Admiral Ventlet and the Lightning II team seem to have things kind of back on track, and rather than redesign two aircraft carriers, they have decided to go back to the B, which is seemingly shaping up to be what they had originally intended. When you live in a free country, everyone has an opinion, often informed by a very liberal media, who have an undying loathing of all things military and supportive of pols of the same mind. So although the B is more expensive, it is much cheaper and will give you capability shortly, rather than modifiying two carriers, "if" things remain on track. Aaaannnnddd, on top of all that the B is rather eclectic in that weird English way, like the Harrier, they have this strange fascination with vertical takeoff, and I guess it must be addictive cause the USMC has to have theirs too. Had they modded their carriers, it is quite likely one would be in mothballs shortly, and it is best to have two carriers! and yes I know I should have said STOVL, but thanks for reminding me.IMOH Brat
 

flyzies

Junior Member
re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Why the Joint Strike Fighter is a calamity in progress
Winslow Wheeler
May 10, 2012

The United States is making a gigantic investment in the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, billed by its advocates as the next - by their count the fifth - generation of air-to-air and air-to-ground combat aircraft.

Claimed to be near invisible to radar and able to dominate any future battlefield, the F-35 will replace most of the air-combat aircraft in the inventories of the US Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps, and at least nine foreign allies (including Australia), and it will be in those inventories for the next 55 years.

It's no secret, however, that the program - the most expensive in American history - is a calamity.

Last month, we learned that the Pentagon has increased the price tag for the F-35 by another $US289 million - just the latest in a long string of cost increases - and that the program is expected to account for a whopping 38 per cent of Pentagon procurement for defence programs, assuming its cost will grow no more.

How bad is it? A review of the F-35's cost, schedule, and performance - three essential measures of any Pentagon program - shows the problems are fundamental and still growing.

First, with regard to cost, the F-35 is simply unaffordable. Although the plane was originally billed as a low-cost solution, major cost increases have plagued the program throughout the last decade.

Last year, Pentagon leadership told Congress the acquisition price had increased another 16 per cent, from $US328.3 billion to $US379.4 billion for the 2457 aircraft to be bought. Not to worry, however - they pledged to finally reverse the growth.

The result? This February, the price increased another 4 per cent to $US395.7 billion and then even further in April. Don't expect the cost overruns to end there: The test program is only 20 per cent complete, the Government Accountability Office has reported, and the toughest tests are yet to come.

Overall, the program's cost has grown 75 per cent from its original 2001 estimate of $US226.5 billion - and that was for a larger buy of 2866 aircraft.

Hundreds of F-35s will be built before 2019, when initial testing is complete. The additional cost to engineer modifications to fix the inevitable deficiencies that will be uncovered is unknown, but it is sure to exceed the $534 million already known from tests so far.

The total program unit cost for each individual F-35, now at $US161 million, is only a temporary plateau. Expect yet another increase in early 2013, when a new round of budget restrictions is sure to hit the Pentagon, and the F-35 will take more hits in the form of reducing the numbers to be bought, thereby increasing the unit cost of each plane.
A final note on expense: The F-35 will actually cost multiples of the $US395.7 billion cited above. That is the current estimate only to acquire it, not the full life-cycle cost to operate it.

The current appraisal for operations and support is $US1.1 trillion - making for a grand total of $US1.5 trillion, or more than the annual GDP of Spain.

And that estimate is wildly optimistic: It assumes the F-35 will only be 42 per cent more expensive to operate than an F-16, but the F-35 is much more complex.

The only other "fifth generation" aircraft, the F-22 from the same manufacturer, is in some respects less complex than the F-35, but in 2010, it cost 300 per cent more to operate per hour than the F-16. To be very conservative, expect the F-35 to be twice the operating and support cost of the F-16.

Already unaffordable, the F-35's price is headed in one direction - due north.

Running behind schedule

The F-35 isn't only expensive - it's way behind schedule. The first plan was to have an initial batch of F-35s available for combat in 2010. Then first deployment was to be 2012. More recently, the military services have said the deployment date is "to be determined." A new target date of 2019 has been informally suggested in testimony - almost 10 years late.
If the F-35's performance were spectacular, it might be worth the cost and wait. But it is not. Even if the aircraft lived up to its original specifications - and it will not - it would be a huge disappointment. The reason it is such a mediocrity also explains why it is unaffordable and, for years to come, unobtainable.

In discussing the F-35 with aviation and acquisition experts - some responsible for highly successful aircraft such as the F-16 and the A-10, and others with decades of experience inside the Pentagon and years of direct observation of the F-35's early history - I learned that the F-35's problems are built into its very DNA.

The design was born in the late 1980s in the Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA), the Pentagon agency that has earned an undeserved reputation for astute innovation.

It emerged as a proposal for a very short takeoff and vertical-landing aircraft (known as "STOVL") that would also be supersonic. This required an airframe design that - simultaneously - wanted to be short, even stumpy, and single-engine (STOVL), and also sleek, long, and with lots of excess power, usually with twin engines.

President Bill Clinton's Pentagon bogged down the already compromised design concept further by adding the requirement that it should be a multirole aircraft - both an air-to-air fighter and a bomber.

This required more difficult tradeoffs between agility and low weight, and the characteristics of an airframe optimised to carry heavy loads. Clinton-era officials also layered on "stealth," imposing additional aerodynamic shape requirements and maintenance-intensive skin coatings to reduce radar reflections.

They also added two separate weapons bays, which increase permanent weight and drag, to hide onboard missiles and bombs from radars. On top of all that, they made it multiservice, requiring still more tradeoffs to accommodate more differing, but exacting, needs of the Air Force, Marine Corps, and Navy.

Finally, again during the Clinton administration, the advocates composed a highly "concurrent" acquisition strategy. That meant hundreds of copies of the F-35 would be produced, and the financial and political commitments would be made, before the test results showed just what was being bought.

This grotesquely unpromising plan has already resulted in multitudes of problems - and 80 per cent of the flight testing remains.

A virtual flying piano, the F-35 lacks the F-16's agility in the air-to-air mode and the F-15E's range and payload in the bombing mode, and it can't even begin to compare to the A-10 at low-altitude close air support for troops engaged in combat.

Worse yet, it won't be able to get into the air as often to perform any mission - or just as importantly, to train pilots - because its complexity prolongs maintenance and limits availability.

The aircraft most like the F-35, the F-22, was able to get into the air on average for only 15 hours per month in 2010 when it was fully operational.
(In 2011, the F-22 was grounded for almost five months and flew even less.)
This mediocrity is not overcome by the F-35's "fifth-generation" characteristics, the most prominent of which is its "stealth." Despite what many believe, "stealth" is not invisibility to radar; it is limited-detection ranges against some radar types at some angles.

Put another way, certain radars, some of them quite antiquated, can see "stealthy" aircraft at quite long ranges, and even the susceptible radars can see the F-35 at certain angles. The ultimate demonstration of this shortcoming occurred in the 1999 Kosovo war, when 1960s vintage Soviet radar and missile equipment shot down a "stealthy" F-117 bomber and severely damaged a second.

The bottom line: The F-35 is not the wonder its advocates claim. It is a gigantic performance disappointment, and in some respects a step backward. The problems, integral to the design, cannot be fixed without starting from a clean sheet of paper.

It's time to face the facts: The F-35 is an unaffordable mediocrity, and the program will not be fixed by any combination of hardware tweaks or cost-control projects. There is only one thing to do with the F-35: Junk it. America's air forces deserve a much better aircraft, and the taxpayers deserve a much cheaper one. The dustbin awaits.

Winslow Wheeler is director of the Straus Military Reform Project at the Centre for Defence Information. Previously, he worked for 31 years on national security issues for Republican and Democratic senators on Capitol Hill and for the Government Accountability Office. He is editor of the anthology The Pentagon Labyrinth: 10 Short Essays to Help You Through It.

Foreign Policy


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Equation

Lieutenant General
re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Why the Joint Strike Fighter is a calamity in progress
Winslow Wheeler
May 10, 2012

The United States is making a gigantic investment in the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, billed by its advocates as the next - by their count the fifth - generation of air-to-air and air-to-ground combat aircraft.

Claimed to be near invisible to radar and able to dominate any future battlefield, the F-35 will replace most of the air-combat aircraft in the inventories of the US Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps, and at least nine foreign allies (including Australia), and it will be in those inventories for the next 55 years.

It's no secret, however, that the program - the most expensive in American history - is a calamity.

Last month, we learned that the Pentagon has increased the price tag for the F-35 by another $US289 million - just the latest in a long string of cost increases - and that the program is expected to account for a whopping 38 per cent of Pentagon procurement for defence programs, assuming its cost will grow no more.

How bad is it? A review of the F-35's cost, schedule, and performance - three essential measures of any Pentagon program - shows the problems are fundamental and still growing.

First, with regard to cost, the F-35 is simply unaffordable. Although the plane was originally billed as a low-cost solution, major cost increases have plagued the program throughout the last decade.

Last year, Pentagon leadership told Congress the acquisition price had increased another 16 per cent, from $US328.3 billion to $US379.4 billion for the 2457 aircraft to be bought. Not to worry, however - they pledged to finally reverse the growth.

The result? This February, the price increased another 4 per cent to $US395.7 billion and then even further in April. Don't expect the cost overruns to end there: The test program is only 20 per cent complete, the Government Accountability Office has reported, and the toughest tests are yet to come.

Overall, the program's cost has grown 75 per cent from its original 2001 estimate of $US226.5 billion - and that was for a larger buy of 2866 aircraft.

Hundreds of F-35s will be built before 2019, when initial testing is complete. The additional cost to engineer modifications to fix the inevitable deficiencies that will be uncovered is unknown, but it is sure to exceed the $534 million already known from tests so far.

The total program unit cost for each individual F-35, now at $US161 million, is only a temporary plateau. Expect yet another increase in early 2013, when a new round of budget restrictions is sure to hit the Pentagon, and the F-35 will take more hits in the form of reducing the numbers to be bought, thereby increasing the unit cost of each plane.
A final note on expense: The F-35 will actually cost multiples of the $US395.7 billion cited above. That is the current estimate only to acquire it, not the full life-cycle cost to operate it.

The current appraisal for operations and support is $US1.1 trillion - making for a grand total of $US1.5 trillion, or more than the annual GDP of Spain.

And that estimate is wildly optimistic: It assumes the F-35 will only be 42 per cent more expensive to operate than an F-16, but the F-35 is much more complex.

The only other "fifth generation" aircraft, the F-22 from the same manufacturer, is in some respects less complex than the F-35, but in 2010, it cost 300 per cent more to operate per hour than the F-16. To be very conservative, expect the F-35 to be twice the operating and support cost of the F-16.

Already unaffordable, the F-35's price is headed in one direction - due north.

Running behind schedule

The F-35 isn't only expensive - it's way behind schedule. The first plan was to have an initial batch of F-35s available for combat in 2010. Then first deployment was to be 2012. More recently, the military services have said the deployment date is "to be determined." A new target date of 2019 has been informally suggested in testimony - almost 10 years late.
If the F-35's performance were spectacular, it might be worth the cost and wait. But it is not. Even if the aircraft lived up to its original specifications - and it will not - it would be a huge disappointment. The reason it is such a mediocrity also explains why it is unaffordable and, for years to come, unobtainable.

In discussing the F-35 with aviation and acquisition experts - some responsible for highly successful aircraft such as the F-16 and the A-10, and others with decades of experience inside the Pentagon and years of direct observation of the F-35's early history - I learned that the F-35's problems are built into its very DNA.

The design was born in the late 1980s in the Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA), the Pentagon agency that has earned an undeserved reputation for astute innovation.

It emerged as a proposal for a very short takeoff and vertical-landing aircraft (known as "STOVL") that would also be supersonic. This required an airframe design that - simultaneously - wanted to be short, even stumpy, and single-engine (STOVL), and also sleek, long, and with lots of excess power, usually with twin engines.

President Bill Clinton's Pentagon bogged down the already compromised design concept further by adding the requirement that it should be a multirole aircraft - both an air-to-air fighter and a bomber.

This required more difficult tradeoffs between agility and low weight, and the characteristics of an airframe optimised to carry heavy loads. Clinton-era officials also layered on "stealth," imposing additional aerodynamic shape requirements and maintenance-intensive skin coatings to reduce radar reflections.

They also added two separate weapons bays, which increase permanent weight and drag, to hide onboard missiles and bombs from radars. On top of all that, they made it multiservice, requiring still more tradeoffs to accommodate more differing, but exacting, needs of the Air Force, Marine Corps, and Navy.

Finally, again during the Clinton administration, the advocates composed a highly "concurrent" acquisition strategy. That meant hundreds of copies of the F-35 would be produced, and the financial and political commitments would be made, before the test results showed just what was being bought.

This grotesquely unpromising plan has already resulted in multitudes of problems - and 80 per cent of the flight testing remains.

A virtual flying piano, the F-35 lacks the F-16's agility in the air-to-air mode and the F-15E's range and payload in the bombing mode, and it can't even begin to compare to the A-10 at low-altitude close air support for troops engaged in combat.

Worse yet, it won't be able to get into the air as often to perform any mission - or just as importantly, to train pilots - because its complexity prolongs maintenance and limits availability.

The aircraft most like the F-35, the F-22, was able to get into the air on average for only 15 hours per month in 2010 when it was fully operational.
(In 2011, the F-22 was grounded for almost five months and flew even less.)
This mediocrity is not overcome by the F-35's "fifth-generation" characteristics, the most prominent of which is its "stealth." Despite what many believe, "stealth" is not invisibility to radar; it is limited-detection ranges against some radar types at some angles.

Put another way, certain radars, some of them quite antiquated, can see "stealthy" aircraft at quite long ranges, and even the susceptible radars can see the F-35 at certain angles. The ultimate demonstration of this shortcoming occurred in the 1999 Kosovo war, when 1960s vintage Soviet radar and missile equipment shot down a "stealthy" F-117 bomber and severely damaged a second.

The bottom line: The F-35 is not the wonder its advocates claim. It is a gigantic performance disappointment, and in some respects a step backward. The problems, integral to the design, cannot be fixed without starting from a clean sheet of paper.

It's time to face the facts: The F-35 is an unaffordable mediocrity, and the program will not be fixed by any combination of hardware tweaks or cost-control projects. There is only one thing to do with the F-35: Junk it. America's air forces deserve a much better aircraft, and the taxpayers deserve a much cheaper one. The dustbin awaits.

Winslow Wheeler is director of the Straus Military Reform Project at the Centre for Defence Information. Previously, he worked for 31 years on national security issues for Republican and Democratic senators on Capitol Hill and for the Government Accountability Office. He is editor of the anthology The Pentagon Labyrinth: 10 Short Essays to Help You Through It.

Foreign Policy


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Let's give it some more time before placing final judgement on the project.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

The F-35 is in limited production, it is a necessary piece of equipment, there are in fact, three separate versions attempting to get around the usual one size fits all issues. Mr Wheeler manages to get to some of the cogent issues, but in a sensationalistic-self serving hit piece, the kind that gets picked up by media outlets and hyped even further. While I have been personally critical of this aircraft, my criticism is more about design purity and purpose, and My real issue with the F-35 has nothing really to do with it, but that the premier A2A aircraft in the world has been "sacrificed" for political and philosophical reasons, in order to promote an aircraft that is likely a fine aircraft in the strike roll, but significantly less so in the A2A, however its fan boys exaggerate its capabilities and are in denial when talking about its very real issues. At a point when the Raptor was at a good place, not perfect, but very good, the plug was pulled in order to hopefully get the F-35 over its hump, and promote the glorious little Thunder Hogg. Let me say this, its not quite as good as the fanboys say, but its much better than the haters will admit, it is growing on me, but not enough to add it to my small diecast aircraft collection, and I must admit that I like the C with its larger wing.
 

delft

Brigadier
re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

The number of compromises necessary to achieve some commonality between versions for three very different types of user and for several types of purpose led to an aircraft that is heavier and more expensive in acquisition and maintenance than when three different aircraft were developed. Besides the main costs are in electronic gear that might largely be common to the different aircraft, so the advantage was to be in a slight reduction in a small part of the total cost. In other words: its a lemon.
Btw STOVL is meant to use aircraft very near a front line that is now within easy reach of multiple rocket launchers - this concept has lost its value.
 
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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

The number of compromises necessary to achieve some commonality between versions for three very different types of user and for several types of purpose led to an aircraft that is heavier and more expensive in acquisition and maintenance than when three different aircraft were developed. Besides the main costs are in electronic gear that might largely be common to the different aircraft, so the advantage was to be in a slight reduction in a small part of the total cost. In other words: its a lemon.
Btw STOVL is meant to use aircraft very near a front line that is now within easy reach of multiple rocket launchers - this concept has lost its value.

Yes, I believe you might agree that its overweight, is from all the political pork hanging on it, I guess we could have a southern style barbeque!
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

The F-35C flies with external weapons for the first time. However I see only two sidewinders missiles.

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PATUXENT RIVER, Md. (June 27, 2012) The carrier variant of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter flies for the first time with external weapons. Navy test pilot Lt. Christopher Tabert flew CF-1 with inert AIM-9X Sidewinder air-to-air missiles on port and starboard pylons to measure flying qualities and aircraft vibrations. The F-35C is distinct from the F-35A and F-35B variants with larger wing surfaces and reinforced landing gear for greater control when operating in the demanding carrier take-off and landing environment. (U.S. Navy photos courtesy Lockheed Martin/Released)
 

Kurt

Junior Member
re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

The number of compromises necessary to achieve some commonality between versions for three very different types of user and for several types of purpose led to an aircraft that is heavier and more expensive in acquisition and maintenance than when three different aircraft were developed. Besides the main costs are in electronic gear that might largely be common to the different aircraft, so the advantage was to be in a slight reduction in a small part of the total cost. In other words: its a lemon.
Btw STOVL is meant to use aircraft very near a front line that is now within easy reach of multiple rocket launchers - this concept has lost its value.

Saab does develop their Gripen with electronic parts that were developed independent of the aircraft. I imagine that in theory you could make some avionics and possibly engine parts specifications for communality that is increasingly reduced according to airframe design and role specifics. Creating select objects according to specifications needs defined software connections, but increases competitiveness by enhanced capability of companies to focus their energy on small objects within their financial and personnel limits and with suitable synergies. The problem, where things like this can go terribly wrong, are the defined interactions with other components. You need a suitable extensive testing to a good definitions concept and as much evolutionary systems integration as possible to eliminate errors.

I'm sceptic about the STOVL concept for fighter aircrafts, but seeing them as high performance helicopters, they make a lot more sense. If they are a helicopter successor, you might want some more design changes for these roles and pretend less that these are some kind of fighter aircrafts.
 

Kurt

Junior Member
re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

The US will find a way and make F-35 a potent strike fighter .... believe me

I don't doubt that the US will make the F 35 a part of their potent aerial armament. It has enough F 22 DNA, but could use more fighter and less bomb-truck specifications. Some of the decisions will mean that getting this aircraft to high standards will require extraordinary effort and expenditure while the same goal could have been achieved with less effort and better planning.
It's the surviveability characteristic against enemy fighters that seems extraordinary low in the high-low mix with the F 22. That's why I would expect more F 22, possibly cheaper and less sophisticated or upgraded F 35 to be closer to the F 22 fighter. The gap to countries like Russia or China is much more narrow if you take PPP data for comparing the military expenditures. With the predictable erosion of US power I have a hard time understanding that the high-low mix is about 10 low F 35 per 1 high F 22.
 
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