F-35 Joint Strike Fighter News, Videos and pics Thread

[Air Force Brat]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

The number of compromises necessary to achieve some commonality between versions for three very different types of user and for several types of purpose led to an aircraft that is heavier and more expensive in acquisition and maintenance than when three different aircraft were developed. Besides the main costs are in electronic gear that might largely be common to the different aircraft, so the advantage was to be in a slight reduction in a small part of the total cost. In other words: its a lemon.
Btw STOVL is meant to use aircraft very near a front line that is now within easy reach of multiple rocket launchers - this concept has lost its value.

I'm sure the F-35 will be a great strike airplane, and the C looks good, I like the increased wing area. My problem is the Raptor, which is the A2A fighter that all the others will be compared with was canceled as the DoD couldn't afford two money pits. While the Raptor has issues, it is a fabulous airplane, the F-35 leaves a lot to be desired as an A2A platform, it is slow, heavy, not as agile, and lacks TVC, and is not nearly as stealthy as the F-22, and lacks the redundancy that comes with the second powerplant. It is honestly a very fine airplane in many aspects and will fullfill the F-16 role quite nicely, it is not however a Raptor!

---------- Post added at 02:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:13 PM ----------

I don't doubt that the US will make the F 35 a part of their potent aerial armament. It has enough F 22 DNA, but could use more fighter and less bomb-truck specifications. Some of the decisions will mean that getting this aircraft to high standards will require extraordinary effort and expenditure while the same goal could have been achieved with less effort and better planning.
It's the surviveability characteristic against enemy fighters that seems extraordinary low in the high-low mix with the F 22. That's why I would expect more F 22, possibly cheaper and less sophisticated or upgraded F 35 to be closer to the F 22 fighter. The gap to countries like Russia or China is much more narrow if you take PPP data for comparing the military expenditures. With the predictable erosion of US power I have a hard time understanding that the high-low mix is about 10 low F 35 per 1 high F 22.

I concur sir!

 

[delft]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

The expectation is that next Thursday the Dutch parliament will decide that the Netherlands will leave the F-35 consortium, because the craft is clearly excessively expensive and unlikely to provide valuable work for Dutch industry within a reasonable time frame. Whether it will or will not be a good fighter aircraft eventually, something we cannot judge for the next half dozen years, will be irrelevant.
I wonder whether Italy can afford to remain within the consortium.

 

[Jeff Head]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

The expectation is that next Thursday the Dutch parliament will decide that the Netherlands will leave the F-35 consortium, because the craft is clearly excessively expensive and unlikely to provide valuable work for Dutch industry within a reasonable time frame. Whether it will or will not be a good fighter aircraft eventually, something we cannot judge for the next half dozen years, will be irrelevant.

I wonder whether Italy can afford to remain within the consortium.

Sorry to see the Netherlands go if they do...but also understandable.

I believe Italy will stay in longer. They have a need for these aircraft for the Cavour and the Garibaldi. The Harriers are getting long in the tooth and there is no other viable replacement right now...so they have a strong reason to stick with seeing the B model work...and I believe it will work out fine in the end.

It's a new aircraft with significant new technologies and like any other very complicated program, there will be bugs and issues to work out.

The US has a huge investment in this aircraft in all three branches, Air Force, Navy and Marines. They are going to come together and make this thing work.

The numer of current aircraft, the number ordered and building for 2012, the same for 2013, and the plan by 2018 are shown below: (Note: The aircraft in 2013 are already funded, purchased and building, the procurement funding out to 18 is approved)

US Air Force F-35A - 22 (2011) : 20 (2012) :59 (2013) : 110 (2018)
US Marines F-35B - 7 (2011) : 14 (2012) : 18 (2013) : 28 (2018)
US Navy F:35C - 3 (2011) : 9 (2012) : 15 (2013) 27 : (2018)

By the end of this year (2012) there will be a total of 63 aircraft, and 92 by the end of 2013. Low rate production will continue through 2018 by which time a total of 165 aircraft will be flying. In 2019 full production for each variant is planned to begin, By that time there the 165 aircraft already produced will be operating flying in their respective services under intial operational capability.

And while there have certainly been problems, the test schedule is actually ahead of schedule in most areas, the costs which had been rising are now beginning to drop, and more and more nations are expressing interest. Here's a recent Forbes article regarding the same.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

 

[delft]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Question is - can Italy afford to maintain Garibaldi and Cavour, remembering the costs of upgrading the ships and the costs of the aircraft. Financially Italy is pretty weak.

 

[Jeff Head]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Question is - can Italy afford to maintain Garibaldi and Cavour, remembering the costs of upgrading the ships and the costs of the aircraft. Financially Italy is pretty weak.

It's a good question, particularly given their financial situation in the EU.

Both are good vessels and both have a lot of life in them, particularly of course the Cavour.

But both will also need new aircraft and the JSF "B" while I believe will be a great aircraft for these carriers, it's just going to add to the cost.

if they can get their financial house in order...yes. If not, then at some point they will begin dropping systems and the Garibaldi will go before the Cavour.

 

[delft]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

OT

It's a good question, particularly given their financial situation in the EU.

Both are good vessels and both have a lot of life in them, particularly of course the Cavour.

But both will also need new aircraft and the JSF "B" while I believe will be a great aircraft for these carriers, it's just going to add to the cost.

if they can get their financial house in order...yes. If not, then at some point they will begin dropping systems and the Garibaldi will go before the Cavour.

Italy needs ten or more years to bring its house in order and in that time it shouldn't spend money on flattops. Better sell both ships to, for example, Indonesia. That country might equip the ships with transport helicopters that might in case of need be armed. The ships would be excellent for disaster relieve and they would be generally useful to that huge country.

 

[Jeff Head]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

OT

Italy needs ten or more years to bring its house in order and in that time it shouldn't spend money on flattops. Better sell both ships to, for example, Indonesia. That country might equip the ships with transport helicopters that might in case of need be armed. The ships would be excellent for disaster relieve and they would be generally useful to that huge country.

We'll see. But my guess is that that is not going to happen. If they cannot turn their economy around, they may dispose of one of them...but I do not believe they will dispose of both of them.

It's always easy to cut the military because people do not view it as necessary...until you need it that is...when in fact it is the principle job of the government. They are (like every other nation in these times...including the US) going to have to cut the tremendous sink hole that the social entitlement programs have become. And that will be hard to do simply because they have become so popular and used by so many.

I believe they will cut in other areas before they cut both carriers.

 

[delft]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

We'll see. But my guess is that that is not going to happen. If they cannot turn their economy around, they may dispose of one of them...but I do not believe they will dispose of both of them.

It's always easy to cut the military because people do not view it as necessary...until you need it that is...when in fact it is the principle job of the government. They are (like every other nation in these times...including the US) going to have to cut the tremendous sink hole that the social entitlement programs have become. And that will be hard to do simply because they have become so popular and used by so many.

I believe they will cut in other areas before they cut both carriers.

This is not about getting rid of the Italian Navy, but about giving up on an expensive and non-essential part of it.
And the social entitlement problem concerns Wall Street and the London City ( think LIBOR as just one example ) not the costs of helping to maintain poor people.

 

[Franklin]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Very unlikely inspiration for the F-35B Lightning II the Soviet build Yak-41M Freestyle.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

 

[Air Force Brat]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Very unlikely inspiration for the F-35B Lightning II the Soviet build Yak-41M Freestyle.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

The Yaks were purchased by LockMart in order to get a little more insight into the lift fans, so as unlikely as that may seem to some it works for me, and thats why if I were China I would purchase 50 or so Su-35s and 200-400 engines of same with OVT for the J-20. I'm certain LockMart paid full price, but it works, so remember the old Brat's original line, " it doesn't matter if you developed it , bought it, or borrowed/stole? it " If it works, use it". That why LockMart remains the greatest fighter factory in the world, they go after the tech, up the ante and max it out, "voila", thats what birthed the Raptor, and thats what it takes to be "top DOG". OH Yeah, and don't forget to smile the whole time!