Chinese purchase of Su-35

Geographer

Junior Member
So vesicles and plawolf, if not for defense cooperation or to bolster China's air defenses, how do you explain the arms purchase?

High-performance, high-endurance SSNs, SSGNs, and SSBNs for long patrols in the Central Pacific and Arabian Sea, since those areas straddle sealanes vital to Chinese commerce
Long-range bombers in the Tu-160 or B1-B weight class
ASW helicopters and sonar systems (especially passive arrays that can detect the newest European and Japanese SSKs)
SLBMs (I doubt Russia would ever offer substantial expertise on this, but if such a deal was accomplished, it would send an unmistakeable signal that China and Russia have set in stone a de facto alliance.)
I agree with this. The Su-35s should be low priority for China because they already have so many capable fighters, from the J-10A to the the J-11B. China needs AEW, long range bombers, and heavy transports a lot more than fighters.

I know it's fashionable to dismiss strategic bombers as Cold War relics, but they have proved their utility to the USAF in many wars. The B-52 and B-1B are huge bomb trucks which can saturate an area with bombs. They can launch dozens of cruise missiles at high altitude and high speed, more than doubling their range. The fact that China is still upgrading its H-6s show China also sees value in the heavy bombers. Imagine what adding something like the Tu-22M Backfire would do to the PLAAF's strike capability.
 

luhai

Banned Idiot
It's actually nothing like the 956EM deal. Back then, the 956EM actually provided something that China doesn't have. Right now, the Su-35 doesn't contain anything that is valuable to China. Avionics wise, China is ahead of Russia, especially when you consider what have been installed on the J-20. Engines wise, WS-15 surpasses the 117S on paper and the core was already out in 2005. Being able to produce the core already signifies China has mastered the key technologies to a high performance engine.

Actually the 956EMs are signed in 2002 and delivered in 2005 and 2006, which around the same time 052B(L:2002, C:2004 and 052C(L:2003, C:2005) launch and commission. If we treat 956EM as Su-35, 052B as J-16 and 052C as J-20. They they have roughly the same timeline.
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
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Actually the 956EMs are signed in 2002 and delivered in 2005 and 2006, which around the same time 052B(L:2002, C:2004 and 052C(L:2003, C:2005) launch and commission. If we treat 956EM as Su-35, 052B as J-16 and 052C as J-20. They they have roughly the same timeline.

Excellent observation Luhai, which suggests the best reason yet for these particular purchases - performance/benchmark comparison and evaluation. Everybody needs to get an idea about how good their kit is against everybody else's and usually you have to send out your spies to nick the info from the competition. Trouble is your spies nicking stuff like this from your "Strategic Partners" is not exactly good form or conducive to good relations. Getting the same info and a lot of goodwill for the cost of some chump change does look like very good value for money.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I don't know if anyone is rich enough to consider several billion US$ as chump change. China has a lot of reserves, but it didn't earn them by being silly with its money.

The Russians would have provided plenty of technical data to support their sales claims, and if China was really interested, I dare say they could have had a few live demonstrations from the Russians to see what the Su35 can do.

What would having Su35s tell China about the performance of the likes of late blk F16s or F18s, Typhoons, Rafales or Raptors etc?

China is not going to fight Russia, and the Su35 is as new and unproven as anything China has in opration or development, so what does knowing how China's planes would perform against the Su35 help the PLAAF to figure out how to better deal with the latest fighters of countries it might actually have to fight in a real war?

The only country who's capabilities China might get a better handle on by having Su35s to play with would be India, but I just don't see China considering India as enough of a threat to warrant buying Su35s to learn to fight better. Pakistan would no doubt be overjoyed if China bought Su35s and would probably spend more time studying the specs and dreaming up ways to counter the Su35 than China ever will. But even China isn't good enough of a friend to spend billions to help Pakistan better practice against Indian MKIs.
 

mzyw

Junior Member
latest report from the ministry of defence, no denial of deal. It is looking bad for us gents. IMO deal is still in negotiation may be signed later.

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记者:最近有消息称,中俄签署了军售大单,其中包括了潜艇和苏-35战机,请问这些战机和潜艇有什么用途?

  杨宇军:关于中俄军技合作方面的问题,我看到最近媒体关于这个问题有着各种各样的报道。我想说的是,当前,中俄两国的军技合作保持着健康发展的势头,双方将在以往合作成果的基础上,进一步扩大合作,实现互利共赢。

Google translation:
Reporter: The recent news that Russia signed arms sales to large single, including submarines and Su-35 fighters, what purpose do these fighters and submarines?

Yang Yujun: About Sino-Russian military technical cooperation issues, I have seen that has a variety of reports in the media recently about this issue. I want to say is that the current military technology cooperation between China and Russia have maintained a healthy development momentum, on the basis of the results of previous cooperation, the two sides will further expand cooperation and achieve mutual benefit and win-win.
I can't find the english version may be someone can help.
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
China-Russia sign arms-sale pact(China Daily)13:47, March 26, 2013 Beijing to buy 24 Su-35 fighters, 4 Lada submarines from Moscow

Beijing and Moscow signed two arms-sale contracts in which China will buy Russian fighter jets and submarines, media reports said.

The deals, for 24 Su-35 fighters and four Lada-class submarines, raised concern among some regional players and media. Chinese observers said the reaction was "unnecessary" because the purchase is not directed at any third party.

China Central Television reported on Sunday that the purchase deals were signed before President Xi Jinping's just-concluded visit to Russia.

The purchases represented "the first time in nearly 10 years" that China had bought large military technological equipment from Russia, the report said.

The four submarines will be jointly designed and built by both countries, with two of them to be built in Russia and the other two in China.

"The Su-35 fighters can effectively reduce pressure on China's air defense before Chinese-made stealth fighters come online," the report said.

Li Hong, secretary-general of the China Arms Control and Disarmament Association, said the recent purchases and joint building plan serve as an indicator of the evolution of the overall Sino-Russian strategic partnership.

"It is the natural, well-deserved fruit of bilateral defense cooperation, and both sides have made it clear that the bilateral strategic partnership is not targeting anyone," Li said.

As for some countries and their speculation on the intentions behind the arms deals, Li said China is not the only country that has signed big arms deals with Russia recently.

Geng Yansheng, said last month that Sino-Russian cooperation on military technology is not directed at a third party, and that it will facilitate peace and stability in the world and the region.

The enhanced agenda of bilateral defense cooperation also has seen Xi, who is also chairman of the Central Military Commission, visit Russia's Defense Ministry on Saturday.

Xi is the first Chinese head of state to have made the tour, and he said the idea of visiting the ministry was proposed by Russian President Vladimir Putin.

The world is still unequal, unbalanced and tumultuous, with challenges of both "traditional and nontraditional" threats, as well as the further spreading of turmoil in some areas, Xi said.

China and Russia, in the face of complicated international situation, should strengthen their coordination, and work with the international community to deal with all kinds of challenges and threats, he said.

Meng Xiangqing, deputy director of the Strategic Research Institute at the National Defense University of the PLA, said the meetings have shown a profound development of both countries' armed forces in the field of "pragmatic cooperation" in addition to friendly gestures.

On Sunday, Chang Wanquan, Chinese State councilor and defense minister, said during a meeting with Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu that wide-ranging and multilayer defense cooperation has become a cornerstone of the China-Russia comprehensive strategic partnership.

"Given the complex international scenario today, China-Russia strategic cooperation and coordination will not only benefit the two peoples, but also help promote world peace and stability," he said.

Shoigu, for his part, hailed the "unprecedented high level" of the Sino-Russian strategic partnership. The consensus reached by the top leaders has shown the direction of future development of bilateral ties, he said.

Xinhua and AFP contributed to this story.


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Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
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China-Russia sign arms-sale pact(China Daily)13:47, March 26, 2013 Beijing to buy 24 Su-35 fighters, 4 Lada submarines from Moscow
...

Sorry, but that report is now two days old and was followed by the Russian denial of the deal ! :(
 

Lion

Senior Member
latest report from the ministry of defence, no denial of deal. It is looking bad for us gents. IMO deal is still in negotiation may be signed later.

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Google translation:
Reporter: The recent news that Russia signed arms sales to large single, including submarines and Su-35 fighters, what purpose do these fighters and submarines?

Yang Yujun: About Sino-Russian military technical cooperation issues, I have seen that has a variety of reports in the media recently about this issue. I want to say is that the current military technology cooperation between China and Russia have maintained a healthy development momentum, on the basis of the results of previous cooperation, the two sides will further expand cooperation and achieve mutual benefit and win-win.
I can't find the english version may be someone can help.

He maybe try to be prudent in trying not to say an outright rejection of Russian arms offer.
 

s002wjh

Junior Member
well consider some chinese source are saying its true, this is more than just rumor now. i guess we can't say definitely till china receive the plane, but at least its likely.
 

vesicles

Colonel
He maybe try to be prudent in trying not to say an outright rejection of Russian arms offer.

Yeah, it is clear from what he said that China and Russia will most likely maintain the level of military tech cooperation they have had in the past. Since China has not imported significant hardware in the past decade, that means things will stay that way and China will NOT import anything major in the near future.
 
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