Z-19 armed recon helicopter

TerraN_EmpirE said:

Its for the drive through at McDonalds.

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Don't you mean " fly through ".

TerraN_EmpirE said:

Really Ahho its likely a combination of all three Answers. Cockpits like those on fighters and attack helicopters are personal greenhouses add the reflected heat from the tarmac, and engines and you could probably bake cookies on the pilot's lap. The flight crew need ventilation, they also need to receive orders and hand off messages. Finally they might end up receiving bottles of water or maybe even a small lunch if they are on standby in the cockpit.
as to a shooting from it... Are you kidding me? A cockpit that small would be really difficult to maneuver any real side arm with. A hand gun maybe, a Submachine pistol possibly, a submachine carbine doubtful, assault rifle impossible.

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I wonder why the Apache doesn't have these small windows.

by78 said:

I wonder why the Apache doesn't have these small windows.

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America have no human rights.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

Really Ahho its likely a combination of all three Answers. Cockpits like those on fighters and attack helicopters are personal greenhouses add the reflected heat from the tarmac, and engines and you could probably bake cookies on the pilot's lap. The flight crew need ventilation, they also need to receive orders and hand off messages. Finally they might end up receiving bottles of water or maybe even a small lunch if they are on standby in the cockpit.
as to a shooting from it... Are you kidding me? A cockpit that small would be really difficult to maneuver any real side arm with. A hand gun maybe, a Submachine pistol possibly, a submachine carbine doubtful, assault rifle impossible.

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My gun port idea was more of a joke. If an attack helo pilot has to use his handgun, he would be better off abandoning the helo than staying inside and shoot...

by78 said:

I wonder why the Apache doesn't have these small windows.

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those windows are feature with a possible down side. Apache was a product of the cold war, as such she was built to fight masses of soviet tanks moving across Europe. NATO forces would have been out numbered in such a engagement so until the end of the cold war the plan was to use tactical nuclear weapons. As such the air would have been contaminated. Openings like those vents would have provided a weakness in sealing to protect the flight crews.
so how do you keep from suffering heat stroke in a apache?
when on stand by you open the doors. And the flight crew likely wear a micro climate cooling garment. A vest that circulates a volume of chilled water.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

those windows are feature with a possible down side. Apache was a product of the cold war, as such she was built to fight masses of soviet tanks moving across Europe. NATO forces would have been out numbered in such a engagement so until the end of the cold war the plan was to use tactical nuclear weapons. As such the air would have been contaminated. Openings like those vents would have provided a weakness in sealing to protect the flight crews.
so how do you keep from suffering heat stroke in a apache?
when on stand by you open the doors. And the flight crew likely wear a micro climate cooling garment. A vest that circulates a volume of chilled water.

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Do they not trust cabin over-pressurization as a solution? If tanks can rely on over-pressure to keep out biological agents and nuclear contaminants, then it should be good enough for a helicopter cabin, which is much smaller and better sealed than a tank to begin with.

by78 said:

Z-19 will scout (with its mast mounted radar) and pass targeting information onto the bigger WZ-10. Z-19 will, however, make opportunistic attacks by lobbing missiles from a safe distance.

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Which is exactly what the US did with the OH-58 and the initial Apaches.

But now, the US has the AH-64D with its own mast mounted unit and it can handle it all on its own.

I expect at some point we may well see such an evolution of the WZ-10.

Remember the stories about US Apache Longbows flying around Afghanistan without their longbow radars to extend range and payload?

A mast top MMW radar is heavy, and with the way the Z10 was stripped down following the engine change, I'm not sure adding that additional weight to them is worth the cost in terms of range and payload. The WZ19s are stripped down and up armoured Z9s in effect, so I would expect them to have more of a margin they could dip into without affecting core performance characteristics much.

Something else to consider is opposition and likely attrition rates.

Most of the enemies China might actually fight have advanced weapons systems, and likely pretty comprehensive air defences. As such, for attack helicopters to use active radar to search for targets could mean similar things as fighters using active radar to search for targets in that the enemy would likely detect your radar emissions and take a shot at you if they are within range.

The PLA could simply have decided that it is better to risk loosing a WZ19 in order to get a detailed picture of the enemy rather than a much more expensive and capable Z10.

plawolf said:

Remember the stories about US Apache Longbows flying around Afghanistan without their longbow radars to extend range and payload?

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And they did not need them in Afghanistan because they were not going to face any armored vehicles for which they were really designed.

plawolf said:

A mast top MMW radar is heavy, and with the way the Z10 was stripped down following the engine change, I'm not sure adding that additional weight to them is worth the cost in terms of range and payload. The WZ19s are stripped down and up armoured Z9s in effect, so I would expect them to have more of a margin they could dip into without affecting core performance characteristics much.

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All true...but the same could be said for the Kiowas.

plawolf said:

Most of the enemies China might actually fight have advanced weapons systems, and likely pretty comprehensive air defences. As such, for attack helicopters to use active radar to search for targets could mean similar things as fighters using active radar to search for targets in that the enemy would likely detect your radar emissions and take a shot at you if they are within range.

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Which is precisely the type of enemy those mast mounted untis were designed for.

I guess we will have to wait and see.

If their engines cannot allow it, that is understandable. But combining the functions into one makes a lot of sense too, if they can, and if their doctrine calls for it.

HUD on Z-19.