Z-19 armed recon helicopter

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Black Shark

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Do they not trust cabin over-pressurization as a solution? If tanks can rely on over-pressure to keep out biological agents and nuclear contaminants, then it should be good enough for a helicopter cabin, which is much smaller and better sealed than a tank to begin with.

Since Kamov has designed the WZ-10 it wouldn't be to far fetched if we assume that they had also to work on armor and overall protection since all this work has to be done to get evident numbers to balance the airframe properly.

In attack helicopters protection against NBC contaminated environment there are very different philosophies in west and east.
For example every single russian Attack helicopter has sealed cockpit and the air conditioning along with any vents and seals which have traffic of outer and inner atmosphere are equipped with NBC sensors and the cockpits have always overpressure NBC measurement which is by far the best method considering that helicopters already fly in rather thinner air and overpressurized cockpit will have even better NBC performance than tanks do, even when the cockpit might have a penetration and air is leaving it, it still provides highly protection against agents or fall out. For the case that overpressure isn't suffecient in altitutes like 4km since this about the limitation of the compression systems which are rather small and have to be kept small, the crew has 2l oxygen tanks which hold for 1.5 hours, this is also to be used when the helicopter is hardly damaged and smoke is entering the cockpit to prevent inhale of toxins.

On western helicopters like AH-64, they have no overpressurized method they use the M43 NBC masks which are defined by code FM3-4 NBC protection of troops field.

M43 Aircraft Protective Mask
The M43 mask is a form-fitting butyl rubber facepiece with lenses that mount close to the eyes; an integrated hood with a skull-type suspension system; a portable blower/filter system that operates on battery or aircraft power to maintain positive pressure in the facepiece; and an inhalation air distribution assembly for regulating the flow of air (Figure 1-10). The M43 Type I has a notched eye lens to allow interface with the integrated helmet and display sighting system (IHADSS) equipment. The mask was specifically designed for compatibility with subsystems of the AH-64. The M43 Type II has unnotched lenses for use by non-AH-64 aviators. Both types of masks provide face, eye, and respiratory protection from concentrations of CB agents, toxins, and radioactive fallout particles; however, they do not have the capability of mounting eye lens inserts. Additionally, the mask provides for external voice or wire communications and a drink tube assembly.

Quote from the FM3-4 NBC protection for US and NATO troops field manual.

For each crewmember there is also a personal emergency equippment with injectors against chemical agents like nerve agents, but except of that there is no bigger system to prevent NBC threats entering the cockpit and effecting the crew.

The AH-1W/S/Z crew use either M42 or the very old M24 NBC masks and have also oxygen tanks for live support, no overpressure just sealed cockpits.

Same goes with minor alterations for EC-665 Tiger crewmembers and CSH-2 Rooivalk crew.

AFAIK for A-129 crew there is so far only a gas mask that is attached to oxygen only no filtration and only covers the nose and mouth leaving eyes open which can be effected by several different nerve agents. No overpressure neither collective, but i don't know it for sure couldn't find much information except what i already told.

The only project that was for a full NBC protection for attack helicopter aircraft was for the RAH-66 with the M156-66 NBC protection which was at the same time Crashworthiness for the faces of the pilot/WSO a reinforced nose and mouth piece with additional eye protection that also provided crashworthy protection for the face and was useable with HMDS (Helmet Mounted Display System), the crash worthiness was given when the face was about to smash into the cyclic stick or any controll panels which studies on AH-64A crashs state that a significant number of injures after crashes were caused by lack of crashworthy protection for the face and additional injuries and even near death were caused due Apaches IHADDS (HMDS) eye pieces that caused eyelose, fractures of bones and even inner bleedings on eyes. Another crashworthiness report showed contradictions to the former report of AH-64A crashworthiness of injuries which were caused from flight control instruments such as HOTAS where in number of accidents even the printings and labels from the controlls were "marked" into the faces of the pilots. Buttons and sometimes letters or even syllables were visible on the skin and deaths were also connected with IHADDS and lack of face protection.

Report on crashworthiness and mentioning of face injuries caused by crashes and equipment.

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What i can say is that NBC protection with the traditional helmets are not possible without overpressure or sealed cockpits (collective protection) if NBC protection was within the requirements to design WZ-10 by Kamov than it should be also overpressure, lets hope so.
 

AeroEngineer

Junior Member
Since Kamov has designed the WZ-10 it wouldn't be to far fetched if we assume that they had also to work on armor and overall protection since all this work has to be done to get evident numbers to balance the airframe properly.

In attack helicopters protection against NBC contaminated environment there are very different philosophies in west and east.
For example every single russian Attack helicopter has sealed cockpit and the air conditioning along with any vents and seals which have traffic of outer and inner atmosphere are equipped with NBC sensors and the cockpits have always overpressure NBC measurement which is by far the best method considering that helicopters already fly in rather thinner air and overpressurized cockpit will have even better NBC performance than tanks do, even when the cockpit might have a penetration and air is leaving it, it still provides highly protection against agents or fall out. For the case that overpressure isn't suffecient in altitutes like 4km since this about the limitation of the compression systems which are rather small and have to be kept small, the crew has 2l oxygen tanks which hold for 1.5 hours, this is also to be used when the helicopter is hardly damaged and smoke is entering the cockpit to prevent inhale of toxins.

On western helicopters like AH-64, they have no overpressurized method they use the M43 NBC masks which are defined by code FM3-4 NBC protection of troops field.



Quote from the FM3-4 NBC protection for US and NATO troops field manual.

For each crewmember there is also a personal emergency equippment with injectors against chemical agents like nerve agents, but except of that there is no bigger system to prevent NBC threats entering the cockpit and effecting the crew.

The AH-1W/S/Z crew use either M42 or the very old M24 NBC masks and have also oxygen tanks for live support, no overpressure just sealed cockpits.

Same goes with minor alterations for EC-665 Tiger crewmembers and CSH-2 Rooivalk crew.

AFAIK for A-129 crew there is so far only a gas mask that is attached to oxygen only no filtration and only covers the nose and mouth leaving eyes open which can be effected by several different nerve agents. No overpressure neither collective, but i don't know it for sure couldn't find much information except what i already told.

The only project that was for a full NBC protection for attack helicopter aircraft was for the RAH-66 with the M156-66 NBC protection which was at the same time Crashworthiness for the faces of the pilot/WSO a reinforced nose and mouth piece with additional eye protection that also provided crashworthy protection for the face and was useable with HMDS (Helmet Mounted Display System), the crash worthiness was given when the face was about to smash into the cyclic stick or any controll panels which studies on AH-64A crashs state that a significant number of injures after crashes were caused by lack of crashworthy protection for the face and additional injuries and even near death were caused due Apaches IHADDS (HMDS) eye pieces that caused eyelose, fractures of bones and even inner bleedings on eyes. Another crashworthiness report showed contradictions to the former report of AH-64A crashworthiness of injuries which were caused from flight control instruments such as HOTAS where in number of accidents even the printings and labels from the controlls were "marked" into the faces of the pilots. Buttons and sometimes letters or even syllables were visible on the skin and deaths were also connected with IHADDS and lack of face protection.

Report on crashworthiness and mentioning of face injuries caused by crashes and equipment.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!




What i can say is that NBC protection with the traditional helmets are not possible without overpressure or sealed cockpits (collective protection) if NBC protection was within the requirements to design WZ-10 by Kamov than it should be also overpressure, lets hope so.




There is NO WAY Kamov designed the WZ-10 !!!!

It is bullsh!t by the Russians !!
 

Blitzo

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There is NO WAY Kamov designed the WZ-10 !!!!

It is bullsh!t by the Russians !!

Calm down.


There actually is a fair bit of evidence that Kamov was at least contracted to do some initial concept if not weight and structural work on a helicopter concept that eventually became the Z-10.
Simply google "Z-10 Kamov"

It was pretty big news last year when it was confirmed
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Also, this widely circulated post specified in great detail some of the general specs that china wanted out of project 941. The stuff in the post was ignored mostly until last year where it was effectively proven

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Black Shark

Junior Member
There is NO WAY Kamov designed the WZ-10 !!!!

It is bullsh!t by the Russians !!

Well Blitzio already gave a fair amount of evidence that this is not bullshit.

The project 941 was given to Kamov company in 1995 and it took a year to develope the airframe by Kamov and was than given immidiatley to China for further development.
Don't take my words wrong, Kamov didn't design every single aspect of it, what they did was what China couldn't do during this time span since they lacked the necessary facilities and expertice. Kamov designed the airframe dictated by requirements China gave them. After Pratt & Whitney got sued by their parent partner >United Technologies< for breaking embargo against China for the use of engines for military purpose. So the chinese were left with an engine compartment optimized for foreign engines they couldn't use anymore, so they had to do minor alterations themselfs to fit their domestic engines in it. The difference between this two models which were designed for PTC6 engines on this photo alter much from the current one which is below.

1296012517484.jpg
(Click on picture to see full-sized picture)

One of the requirements that wasn't listed so far is most probably a modular architecture since Kamov is along the first who has ever used this technology in Attack Helicopters (Ka-50) 1982.

What? Any evidence?

After All work by Kamov was completed the money for the work transfered and any further requirements for this entire secret Project were fullfilled or no longer the case, Sergei Mikheyev, General Designer of the Kamov Design Bureau and designer of Ka-50 and Ka-52, came out with this news.
Since this news had no negative effect but a rather solid possitive effect (advertisement), i personally assume this is part of both companies promotion of the Helicopter itself. The west didn't stop to rip off every single picture that was leaked about WZ-10 to imply this work is stolen from Tiger, Mangusta,Apache,AH-1 even tho they didn't share same technology even an unteached eye could tell the difference. Since this negative response by western "reporters" and "military magazines" have always kept this behavior towards china, this news helped the credibility and to ensure quality of the work for both sides.
After this project is finished and activley introduced into the full programm like it is planned to we might see this reflecting on international sales of the WZ-10.


Also your evidence aviation week.
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Blitzo

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@black shark, from what I've read, I don't think kamov built any airframe, but rather they provided baseline dimensions, weight calculations and an aerodynamic design to work from, and that the chinese side did most of the polishing and detailed design, and subsystems, and production of the airframe, all based on the contracted kamov design.
 

Black Shark

Junior Member
@black shark, from what I've read, I don't think kamov built any airframe, but rather they provided baseline dimensions, weight calculations and an aerodynamic design to work from, and that the chinese side did most of the polishing and detailed design, and subsystems, and production of the airframe, all based on the contracted kamov design.

They may not shipped an completed and ready airframe but they did built an airframe like stated by Sergej Mikheev.

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"They gave us the desired weight, we discussed preliminary performance parameters, then we signed a contract and we fulfilled the contract," he says.

After Kamov completed the design, the Russian design bureau verified the design via testing. Kamov then delivered the design to China and the Project 941 concept was accepted by that country's government for further development, he says. Kamov did not participate in any further developmental work on the WZ-10, he insists.

Thereafter, to the country's credit, Mikheev says, the Chinese handled the rest of the developmental work. That includes the developmental prototypes and the operational aircraft that is currently in production for the Chinese military.

It is standard programm for designing an airframe that is exactly what that was about, the airframe is defined by requirements and whatever data you may perfectley optimized on paper has always to be verified in nature, meaning a lifesized airframe, this was done by Kamov. They didn't may shipped this to China but Kamov has designed the airframe which after sanctions on China for the preplanned engines had to be altered for domestic use.

Except of the "designing" for the airframe China did everything on them own. installment, procurement, balance and planning of wiring, etc pp.
 

Blitzo

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They may not shipped an completed and ready airframe but they did built an airframe like stated by Sergej Mikheev.

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It is standard programm for designing an airframe that is exactly what that was about, the airframe is defined by requirements and whatever data you may perfectley optimized on paper has always to be verified in nature, meaning a lifesized airframe, this was done by Kamov. They didn't may shipped this to China but Kamov has designed the airframe which after sanctions on China for the preplanned engines had to be altered for domestic use.

Except of the "designing" for the airframe China did everything on them own. installment, procurement, balance and planning of wiring, etc pp.


By "delivering the design" and "verified via testing," I believe he was talking about wind tunnel tests and the like, rather than building anything like a full functioning airframe — because to do that is basically developing a full prototype, and they would have mentioned it in those words if their work was extensive as that. They might have built a mock up, or even done structural tests on an iron bird, but nothing to suggest a life sized prototype.

Note the lack of mr mikheev mentioning anything remotely about constructing their design, and nothing about an airframe.


The way I read it, kamov basically gave the overall concept dimensions, confirmed the overall aerodynamic and structural potential, and gave the papers to china to actually get into the nitty gritty of engineering a working helicopter into those rough dimensions, with modifications along the way (along with china sourcing all the subsystems, materials work, fabrication of prototypes, etc)
 
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Black Shark

Junior Member
By "delivering the design" and "verified via testing," I believe he was talking about wind tunnel tests rather than building anything like a full functioning airframe — because that is basically developing a prototype, and they would have mentioned it in those words if their work was extensive as that.

You can see windtunnel tests on pictures from more than a scale model.

A mockup model to test weight, balance, RCS is not possible with a scale model and one of the most important requirements was an enhanced "stealth" capability. You do understand that to develope data that have to be sufficient enough for China to produce a helicopter from nothing just on data relying which have to fullfill the required stealth attributes such things have to be measured by different materials, the exact surface m² and the different radar scattering from surface and so on.
To a big degree such data can be veryfied by computers but its one thing having it in a computer simulation and one thing having this specific RCS in a mockup design.

Mockup designs are always made regardless of a project goes even into development or not.
A mockup doesn't mean a prototype.
 

Blitzo

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You can see windtunnel tests on pictures from more than a scale model.

A mockup model to test weight, balance, RCS is not possible with a scale model and one of the most important requirements was an enhanced "stealth" capability. You do understand that to develope data that have to be sufficient enough for China to produce a helicopter from nothing just on data relying which have to fullfill the required stealth attributes such things have to be measured by different materials, the exact surface m² and the different radar scattering from surface and so on.
To a big degree such data can be veryfied by computers but its one thing having it in a computer simulation and one thing having this specific RCS in a mockup design.

Mockup designs are always made regardless of a project goes even into development or not.
A mockup doesn't mean a prototype.

Three things:

One, could you point out where they said enhanced stealth was a major requirement?
Two, even if enhanced stealth was a major requirement, that doesn't mean they necessarily need a full scale mock up to test RCS— clearly the project 941 concept from kamov was not a VLO design, so rigorous RCS testing might not have been required (although this is speculation on my part. I think neither of us can say whether scaled RCS testing would have been sufficient for any stealth requirements if they existed)
Three, even if they built a full scale mockup, that is not the same as developing an airframe.

Airframes can be mock ups, but not all mock ups airframes. For instance, mock ups can be built without any structural or weight considerations in mind, they can be built out of plastic, balsa wood, etc. an airframe on the other hand by definition, is structurally far more realistic in the aforementioned domains.

Furthermore, again I point out that there are no words to suggest that kamov did anything like building a full scale airframe or even a full scale mock up. If you have evidence to the contrary I would be happy to see it.


---

Also, by "verified via testing," we don't know what "verified" means, and we don't know what they verified in the first place. Was it aerodynamics? That can be done via wind tunnels. Was it weight or structure? That could be done via calculations.
The open ended ness of the word "verify," combined with the lack of any mention of a full scale airframe either by kamov or anyone else, tell me that china developed the first airframe themselves.

It wasn't a case of kamov giving them an empty prototype airframe with fully tested structure and weight, and that all they had to do was stick in some avionics, engines, and wire them together.
 
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