Z-10 thread
- Thread starter Red Guard
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A spider crane I think.A mini-crane used for removing the turboshafts.
The last of the series of helicopter programs I want to touch at. Another program that is close to my heart. When I first started following PLAAF, this program was shrouded in even more secrecy than J-10. Even though prototypes had already flown, pictures were nearly impossible to come by. If wasn't until later part of 2000s that we really started to see Z-10 prototypes everywhere. I was said at the time that China had gotten a lot of European assistance under the guise of CMH project. And then, we had the entire debacle with PT6C, where photos of Z-10 engines got Pratt into trouble. That was the end of PT6C as Z-10 engines. The less powerful WZ-9 (speculated to be anything from 935 to 1000 kw) was used to power Z-10. They had to cut the weight of Z-10 significantly to keep the range of mobility of the helicopter. After that, we started seeing mass production of the lighter Z-10 for quite a few years. Many regiments started receiving them. At the same time, Z-19 had also come out at about the same time. Literally over the space of next few years, PLA's attack helicopter shortage crisis had gone away completely. Even though I have not followed this program for a while, I'm still shocked to see how quickly the production has come to a close. Right now, there are probably 15 daduis of Z-10s and 10 daduis of Z-19s. If we include the couple of Z-10K daduis in PLAAF, there are probably around 200 Z-10s in service. Overall, PLA LH is probably at over 500 attack helos between Z-10/Z-19/Z-9W.
Including some nuggets from Shilao podcast. Apparently, they haggled with Kamov over conceptual design cost. It was only 20 million RMB and PLA at that time (93/94) still found that to be a little hard to swallow. Eventually, they paid up and Kamov definitely helped out a lot. Always good to remember how frugally PLA had to operate back then and how cheaply Russians were willing to offer their services. Things have changed a lot. They did have an unusual requirement of internal fuel and range for Z-10 that is far greater than what any other comparable attack helicopters could offer. Basically, the development of Z-10 and WZ-9 both went pretty well considering that China started with no knowledge of attack helicopter design or had any domestically developed turboshaft industry. PT6C was brought in to give them a great option for the development phase. WZ-9 was always planned as the main option for Z-10. That's why they were able to put it in production so soon after PT6C got banned. WZ-9 had achieved production certifcation by 2010. That means they were able to start mass production of it by then. That's also when we saw the mass production of Z-10 starting. Since it was their first turboshaft engine, they were hesitant to push it to the boundary of design. That's why you saw them doing so much weight reduction measures. For example, the new 23 mm gun's main attribute was it's weight rather than its firing rate or accuracy. As time went on, they became more comfortable pushing the WZ-9 engine. That's why we have seen more armor added, more sensors added, new rocket launcher developed and a new 23 mm gun developed. through all this, Z-10 maintains its absurdly long range. WZ-9G is now rated as 1200 KW, close to PT6C. While that sounds like a huge increase, keep in mind that WS-10 project also increased thrust by 16% during a similar time frame. The original WZ-9 was probably capable of well over 1000 KW once they started pushing it more. Either way, WZ-9 series is in the same generation as WZ-10. It's quite advanced.
They believe that Z-10 lost to TA-129 due to the latter having all composite structure and a very powerful American engine. So, Z-10 couldn't match the power to weight ratio of TA-129. It's extremely hard to develop turboshaft engine. TAI is kidding themselves when they claim they can develop their own engine that matches T800. Imo, it's also important to think that Z-10 has certain unique qualities that are not important elsewhere. It's long range really isn't that important to Pakistan for example. It's also important to remember that WZ-9G gives them a lot of excessive power vs before. That's why the additional sensors, armor plates, bigger guns and rocket launchers can be added. At this point, I think Z-10ME export to Pakistan is pretty much settled. The only thing is how many they will order.
According to , Z-10 has over 1100 KM in range and a 5100 kg empty weight. Both of those are higher than what I expected back 10 years ago. I think the most obvious place to use that long range are in Taiwan and Tibet. For the former, they have already tried incursions with Z-10 and Mi-17 at the same time near Taiwan. In a possible Taiwan invasion, I think combined operation between PLAN, PLA LH and PLAAF are badly needed. so, I would expect more similar incursions going forward. They should be able to have a few daduis of Z-10s fly across the strait to support landing, loiter for a while and come back. Similarly, they can escort Z-8/Mi-17s to land over the East coast mountainous regions of Taiwan.
For the latter, there is a Z-10 dadui in Tibet. This also describes Z-10 operating high altitude environment. I think the ability to operate in desert and high altitude environment would also broaden its export appeals (to Pakistan for example).
They have stopped Z-10 production for a couple of years. It seems like they could still use more Z-10s with the army and Air Force. Maybe, they have been waiting for WZ-9G before adding a few more daduis. Or maybe they slowed down Z-10 production to accelerate Z-20 production. Long term, I think Z-10 production has basically trickled to a stop. We probably will see a few more daduis added. A lot of the work left will be to upgrade the engines of Z-10 to WZ-9G and adding more armors and weaponry. Also, I think they will start to really market it for the export market. The big question is whether or not they will get a larger assault helicopter in the apache category. Shilao believes that Ka-52 purchase becomes less likely the longer we wait. I'd tend to agree with that. They now finally have 2 major modern line of turboshaft engines in WZ-9 and WZ-10 series. They could have a third one in the future with WZ-16. That gives them enough of a lineup to cover the power requirement of any future attack helicopter options. A 2 WZ-10 powered attack helicopter would have more power than even the latest Apaches. I think it's probably more important for them to develop a heavier attack helicopter (11 ton class) rather than put in further development in Z-10 series. A combination of a new 11 ton attack helicopter and Z-10 would have so much greater fire power and range/loiter time than WZ-9. At this point, they have enough attack helicopters. The only way to improve is by going larger and more powerful.
Including some nuggets from Shilao podcast. Apparently, they haggled with Kamov over conceptual design cost. It was only 20 million RMB and PLA at that time (93/94) still found that to be a little hard to swallow. Eventually, they paid up and Kamov definitely helped out a lot. Always good to remember how frugally PLA had to operate back then and how cheaply Russians were willing to offer their services. Things have changed a lot. They did have an unusual requirement of internal fuel and range for Z-10 that is far greater than what any other comparable attack helicopters could offer. Basically, the development of Z-10 and WZ-9 both went pretty well considering that China started with no knowledge of attack helicopter design or had any domestically developed turboshaft industry. PT6C was brought in to give them a great option for the development phase. WZ-9 was always planned as the main option for Z-10. That's why they were able to put it in production so soon after PT6C got banned. WZ-9 had achieved production certifcation by 2010. That means they were able to start mass production of it by then. That's also when we saw the mass production of Z-10 starting. Since it was their first turboshaft engine, they were hesitant to push it to the boundary of design. That's why you saw them doing so much weight reduction measures. For example, the new 23 mm gun's main attribute was it's weight rather than its firing rate or accuracy. As time went on, they became more comfortable pushing the WZ-9 engine. That's why we have seen more armor added, more sensors added, new rocket launcher developed and a new 23 mm gun developed. through all this, Z-10 maintains its absurdly long range. WZ-9G is now rated as 1200 KW, close to PT6C. While that sounds like a huge increase, keep in mind that WS-10 project also increased thrust by 16% during a similar time frame. The original WZ-9 was probably capable of well over 1000 KW once they started pushing it more. Either way, WZ-9 series is in the same generation as WZ-10. It's quite advanced.
They believe that Z-10 lost to TA-129 due to the latter having all composite structure and a very powerful American engine. So, Z-10 couldn't match the power to weight ratio of TA-129. It's extremely hard to develop turboshaft engine. TAI is kidding themselves when they claim they can develop their own engine that matches T800. Imo, it's also important to think that Z-10 has certain unique qualities that are not important elsewhere. It's long range really isn't that important to Pakistan for example. It's also important to remember that WZ-9G gives them a lot of excessive power vs before. That's why the additional sensors, armor plates, bigger guns and rocket launchers can be added. At this point, I think Z-10ME export to Pakistan is pretty much settled. The only thing is how many they will order.
According to , Z-10 has over 1100 KM in range and a 5100 kg empty weight. Both of those are higher than what I expected back 10 years ago. I think the most obvious place to use that long range are in Taiwan and Tibet. For the former, they have already tried incursions with Z-10 and Mi-17 at the same time near Taiwan. In a possible Taiwan invasion, I think combined operation between PLAN, PLA LH and PLAAF are badly needed. so, I would expect more similar incursions going forward. They should be able to have a few daduis of Z-10s fly across the strait to support landing, loiter for a while and come back. Similarly, they can escort Z-8/Mi-17s to land over the East coast mountainous regions of Taiwan.
For the latter, there is a Z-10 dadui in Tibet. This also describes Z-10 operating high altitude environment. I think the ability to operate in desert and high altitude environment would also broaden its export appeals (to Pakistan for example).
They have stopped Z-10 production for a couple of years. It seems like they could still use more Z-10s with the army and Air Force. Maybe, they have been waiting for WZ-9G before adding a few more daduis. Or maybe they slowed down Z-10 production to accelerate Z-20 production. Long term, I think Z-10 production has basically trickled to a stop. We probably will see a few more daduis added. A lot of the work left will be to upgrade the engines of Z-10 to WZ-9G and adding more armors and weaponry. Also, I think they will start to really market it for the export market. The big question is whether or not they will get a larger assault helicopter in the apache category. Shilao believes that Ka-52 purchase becomes less likely the longer we wait. I'd tend to agree with that. They now finally have 2 major modern line of turboshaft engines in WZ-9 and WZ-10 series. They could have a third one in the future with WZ-16. That gives them enough of a lineup to cover the power requirement of any future attack helicopter options. A 2 WZ-10 powered attack helicopter would have more power than even the latest Apaches. I think it's probably more important for them to develop a heavier attack helicopter (11 ton class) rather than put in further development in Z-10 series. A combination of a new 11 ton attack helicopter and Z-10 would have so much greater fire power and range/loiter time than WZ-9. At this point, they have enough attack helicopters. The only way to improve is by going larger and more powerful.
I think the emergence of UAVs makes China less necessary for 10-ton attack helicopters. China is now investing heavily in research and development of UAVs.
As the Z-10ME AVIC brochure says, max take off weight is 6000 kg. While empty weight is not given, if one looks at other similar attack choppers and their empty to max weight ratio - it's likely Z-10ME's empty weight is around 3 tons (if like Tiger or Mangusta) or around 4 tons (if like Sea/SuperCobra)
Rotor craft have more operational flexibility and logistical independence. Drones and attack helis aren’t perfect substitutes.
Pre-flight inspections...
lcloo
Captain
Paint work indicate these are PLA Airforce helicopter of Air Assault brigade.
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