Z-10 thread

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tphuang

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Does anyone has got any news of that next generation stealth attack helicopter that is mentioned in huitong´s site ? is that project fact or just rumour?
i'm sure they are working on something. But just remember how long it took the first real Z-10 photo to come out and then how much longer before they went into production. Being highly classified attack helo probably means we won't see any real photos for another 5 years.
 

MwRYum

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I think there was a state media report about the project, so it was taken as rather legitimate but obviously we can't take anything as gospel.

I personally think such a project is within the industry's capabilities, but whether the project would be funded and adopted by the military from preliminary stages is another matter.
The problem is that the state media is just as equally don't know their stuff, and more often then not drawing stuff straight from internet forums instead of real, creditable sources.

If you ask me, though, the only sign that China is ready to move onward to more advanced models would be when Z-10 is finally in the fully loaded out form - with full active and passive countermeasure suites, full combat loadout and in sufficient numbers.

As per past experience, when they've matured the current platform, then there's a backbone for more advanced projects. Since China can count on no external help, that's the only avenue available.
 

newguy02

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Interesting that on Huitong's site, there are two mentions of the next-generation attack helicopter, one is found under the Helicopters III section and states the following:

"The latest news (September 2015) suggested that China has begun to develop the next generation stealth attack helicopter with certain features similar to those of American RAH-66. Compared to the earlier Z-10/Z-19, it would have better maneuverability, survivability and joint operational capability. The helicopter could enter the service with PLA Army as early as 2020 would replace the Z-9WA/WE series."

Then there's a mention under the Z-10 section that states:

"The next generation heavy attack helicopter in the same class of AH-64 and Mi-28 is thought to be under development at 602. However the success of this project will depend on the availability of a powerful engine."

I'm not sure if he's referring to the same helicopter or not but from reading the two statements it appears to be two completely different projects, if it is indeed two different projects, I don't see how the two can coexist as they would almost nearly fulfill the same role with the only difference being that one's supposedly stealth and the other not.

Maybe they're going for a high-low combination?
 

Blitzo

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The problem is that the state media is just as equally don't know their stuff, and more often then not drawing stuff straight from internet forums instead of real, creditable sources.

Yes, I know, that's why I said it's important to not treat it as gospel.


If you ask me, though, the only sign that China is ready to move onward to more advanced models would be when Z-10 is finally in the fully loaded out form - with full active and passive countermeasure suites, full combat loadout and in sufficient numbers.

As per past experience, when they've matured the current platform, then there's a backbone for more advanced projects. Since China can count on no external help, that's the only avenue available.

No... not necessarily -- Z-10 being "full loaded out" would only be indicative that they've managed to secure a sufficiently powerful engine for the aircraft, and would not necessarily have any bearing on the status of a next generation helicopter, especially if it is a recon helicopter which would have relatively low weight, more in lieu of Z-9 or Z-19.
 

MwRYum

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Well when you consider the Z19 Then you would have a High/Lo/Higher?
I seems more likely to me that Z10 sis the high and They are looking to upgrade it.
Z-19 exists more as a "plan B" should the Z-10 flopped, though at this time it still fits the niche as a light attack helo that shares commonality in parts with the Z-9 series it spawned from, alas its loadout when comparing with contemporary designs around the world is deemed as lacking due to the lacklustre powerplant it stuck with.

Yes, I know, that's why I said it's important to not treat it as gospel.
Better treat it as utter BS until more solid evidence are available.
No... not necessarily -- Z-10 being "full loaded out" would only be indicative that they've managed to secure a sufficiently powerful engine for the aircraft, and would not necessarily have any bearing on the status of a next generation helicopter, especially if it is a recon helicopter which would have relatively low weight, more in lieu of Z-9 or Z-19.
Although what ultimately killed off RAH-66 project is the rampant cost overrun, the advent and come-of-age for UAV is what truly killed off recon helicopters. What really won't be so easily replaced by autonomous platforms in the decade or so is attack helicopter. However, without mastering the attack helicopter formula first (ie. true dedicated attack helicopter like Z-10, which the PLA is using it to train up its first cadres of attack helicopter pilots, Z-9W was nothing more than a stop-gap but nowhere close), they're gonna miss critical lessons with what the "target model" will need to be.
 

Blitzo

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Better treat it as utter BS until more solid evidence are available.

I think "utter BS" is a bit too strong at this stage, because it actually isn't that outlandish of a claim.
It's not like they're suggesting China's going to build flying aircraft carriers or something.


Although what ultimately killed off RAH-66 project is the rampant cost overrun, the advent and come-of-age for UAV is what truly killed off recon helicopters. What really won't be so easily replaced by autonomous platforms in the decade or so is attack helicopter. However, without mastering the attack helicopter formula first (ie. true dedicated attack helicopter like Z-10, which the PLA is using it to train up its first cadres of attack helicopter pilots, Z-9W was nothing more than a stop-gap but nowhere close), they're gonna miss critical lessons with what the "target model" will need to be.

Err, no, what you described before was about having a Z-10 that was "fully loaded out" -- which implied that you thought the PLA should have a variant of Z-10 with more powerful engines before developing a next generation helicopter. What your'e talking about now is "mastering the attack helicoper formula" -- which is something else entirely.

The PLA also has enough Z-10s in service, even using slightly less powerful WZ-9 turboshafts, and have produced enough Z-10s over the years since 2010, and also Z-19s, I think to have mastered many of the core technologies and for the military to have developed core doctrines to inform a next generation attack helicopter design... and this stealthy helicopter sounds more like a lighter armed recon helicopter instead, which would likely be able to use less powerful turboshafts.

So I see no reason why they need a helicopter in the weight class of Apache or Mi-28 equivalent first, before developing a next generation helicopter.
 

siegecrossbow

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Another variety of rice dumpling.

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hMDNp1K.jpg


A4t2U46.jpg
 

Blackstone

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Looks like Pakistan might pass up the Z-10 for the T-129.

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With the completion of the Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) T-129 ATAK’s trials in Pakistan in June, it appears that the Pakistan Army is pressing ahead with the platform, at least as a leading contender for its dedicated attack helicopter needs.

At this year’s Farnborough Air Show, which concluded last week, a Pakistani delegation
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(source in Turkish) met with TAI to discuss how the ATAK could be tailored for the Pakistan Army’s specific needs.

In addition, Pakistani representatives will also observe Roketsan Mizrak-U (aka UMTAS) anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) qualification tests from the T-129 in the coming months.

Comment and Analysis

Although the Pakistan Army has the Bell AH-1Z Viper in the procurement pipeline (with 11 aircraft out of 15 on order), it appears that the Army will procure another dedicated attack helicopter. The impetus for this could be from the Army’s need assume the bulk of its close air support (CAS) needs (see:
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)
. Besides counterinsurgency (COIN), the CAS element will need to be available in times of conflict with state-level actors (i.e. India).

Given the nature of Pakistan’s relationship with the U.S., broadening dependence on American platforms for a need that will greatly center on external threats will neither be prudent or possible. In turn, the Army designated the
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,
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, and
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as its prospective mainstay options. Pakistan may be in touch with the Russians over the Mi-28NE (which is seeing increasingly widespread adoption in parts of the world), but the Z-10 did participate during this year’s Pakistan Day Parade.

The status of the Z-10 and Mi-28NE are unclear, but seeing the Army engage with TAI on how the T-129 could be adapted for the former’s needs is a significant sign. It is an indication that the aircraft has done sufficiently well in operating under Pakistan’s geographical and environmental conditions, and that Army Aviation apparently views the T-129 as a viable platform.

It is important to have an understanding of what the Pakistan Army would be looking for in terms of a CAS asset. For example, there would be limited value in acquiring a platform that does not have access to a millimeter wave (mmW) radar, which is used to track targets based on their metallic signature. In an age where passive self-protection measures, such as burying laser locks via smoke screens, are very common, mmW has emerged as a strong means for offensive engagement against armoured vehicles. To properly contend with effective passive and increasingly common active – i.e. hard-kill – protective measures, the Pakistan Army will need a mmW radar and mmW-tipped air-to-ground missiles (AGM).

It is unclear if Russia and Western Europe would be willing to offer such technology to Pakistan, but China and Turkey conceivably could. It is plausible that Turkey has assured the Pakistan Army of access to mmW technology once it is developed in Turkey. The core Turkish program in this area is the Meteksan MILDAR, which has been in development for at least the past five years. It is another question of how TAI intends to integrate the MILDAR solution onto the T-129, but that is secondary in comparison to the point of being in possession of the technology itself.

The second major issue is dependency, generally on the West, and specifically on the U.S. Although the T-129 ATAK is a direct descendent of the AugustaWestland (now Leonardo) A-129 Mangusta, TAI has full ownership and rights over the design, and produces it in full in Turkey. The exception to this is the ATAK’s turboshaft, which is the Rolls-Royce and Honeywell LHTEC T800. In effect, TAI would need the approval of the U.S. or potentially the U.K. in order to re-export the T800.

In response to this issue, TAI reportedly told a Turkish defence publication that because Pakistan acquired the AH-1Z, it should have no trouble with acquiring the T800. Sadly, this is far from certain, just as approval for Foreign Military Financing (FMF) – while at one point expected – for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF)’s F-16 Block-52+ purchase did not pan out, despite the fact that Pakistan fought in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) for 10 years, or the reality that the F-16 is Washington’s central foreign policy tool for use in Pakistan’s policymaking circles. That said, one could reasonably argue that TAI would not have even trialed the T-129 in Pakistan had it not received assurances from the U.S.

The third issue is cost. Unlike China or the U.S., Turkey’s ability to offer initial credit or a loan in order to get a deal moving is very limited, it will require cash payments. With Pakistan’s procurement spending for the next eight years
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, its ability to commit cash is limited. TAI could – and likely will given that it has done this before on other programs – do is offer commercial offsets and transfer-of-technology benefits in exchange for buying the T-129. For example, the T-129 could come with complete maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) facilities in Pakistan, including some spare parts manufacturing, which in turn could be linked to the T-129’s overall supply-chain.

The fact that the Turkish Army T-129s will be in production in parallel with export aircraft (e.g. Pakistan) is also advantageous for Pakistan. Pakistan has the time and spare to acquire the T-129 in incremental batches over the period it is being built for the Turkish Army, and as such, is only obligated to provide the cash for the helicopters it immediately needs.

The whole matter is still in its early stages, but it has evidently progressed – i.e. from interest, to trials (in June), to possible package building. While the failed coup may push the schedule up (in terms of months at the minimum), this is the first real momentum seen in Pakistan’s attack helicopter push since the
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and Mi-35 orders. If the T-129 comes to fruition, especially alongside the MILGEM corvettes, then there is no doubt that Turkey will have cemented itself as Pakistan’s leading defence hardware supplier in recent years (second only to China), which will be significant on its own terms.
 
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