Z-10 thread

[tphuang]

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The MTOW from globalsec, fas.org and other sides they all state it is around 7500-8000 kg, the actual numbers is hard to come by, since China is fairly secretive about leaking informations and because it is still in development of upgrades and other systems that will have direct effect on the weight of the Helicopter also maybe further weapon integration will also have an impact on the MTOW and empty weight from the new more powerful engines, so that is why i can only specify what i know so far.

1000 kW which is 1341 shp with 8000 kg MTOW and this number will only raise with further upgrades with Radar, more electronics and new engines and rearrangement of the engine compartment room to fit the new engines. 1341/8t = 167.625 shp/t ~ 167.63 shp/t.

If you have more credible sources for MTOW and specific performance of WZ-9 engines in OEI, Take Off and max emergency power then i would be happy to see it.

Just because the numbers are hard to come by, doesn't mean you should be using the completely unreliable numbers of globalsec, fas.org. You would notice that in no other threads do we use these as "sources". There is no indication from any of the sources that I read that MTOW for Z-10 is in that range. Everything I read point to closer to Eurocopter Tiger. This is something I always try to preach around here. Be very careful about the source that you use when it comes to Chinese military.

 

[Black Shark]

Just because the numbers are hard to come by, doesn't mean you should be using the completely unreliable numbers of globalsec, fas.org. You would notice that in no other threads do we use these as "sources". There is no indication from any of the sources that I read that MTOW for Z-10 is in that range. Everything I read point to closer to Eurocopter Tiger. This is something I always try to preach around here. Be very careful about the source that you use when it comes to Chinese military.

There is a basic principe for everything that flies and weight is based upon requirements designers or military has set for a specific plattform.
The Tiger was designed as a light Attack Helicopter based on several countries needs, some where different from others where a middle ground was found like the fuselage width which directly effects armor/weight. Later upgrades for the Tiger like the ASGARD which has part of an upgrade for better ballistic protection and are using armor plates to protect crew not where the acryl glass is but right beneath from the sides around the waist of crew. Such measurements are usually not performed on aircraft if they are not seen necessary, because additional weight for aircrafts is usually avoided to not lower its characteristics and endurance. Not a single design of western and european attack helicopters contains a requirement for Armored glass and still Apache reachs MTOW above 10t. The WZ-10 like reported aledgley has bullet proof glass at front which comes very close to russian Attack Helicopters design for more protection since till this date and in future main objects that are fired upon Helicopters will be 7.62, 12.7, 14.5 and 20/23 mm calibers. The fuselage is also wider than any Light Attack Helicopter be it A/T-129, Tiger, Cobra/Viper or LCH.

This isn't based upon some shaky numbers floating around but on the design and requirements. The approach of design to more protective than european light attack helicopters is one indication for higher empty weight. The other part is the plating, the ribboning of armor plates at the lower mid section and cockpit itself what was reported and from ribboning is most probably aluminium alloy same as used on AH-64,Mi-24/28 Ka-50/52.
From specifications the WZ-10 comes much closer from empty and MTOW to AH-2 Rooivalk than it would come to any Tiger Version, of course this is speculation but this speculation is based upon information we know or can analyse themselfs, when the information by China is opened and confirmed we will see that the WZ-10 is much closer with empty weight and MTOW of heavy Attack Helicopters than it would be with light Attack Helicopters.

 

[tphuang]

There is a basic principe for everything that flies and weight is based upon requirements designers or military has set for a specific plattform.
The Tiger was designed as a light Attack Helicopter based on several countries needs, some where different from others where a middle ground was found like the fuselage width which directly effects armor/weight. Later upgrades for the Tiger like the ASGARD which has part of an upgrade for better ballistic protection and are using armor plates to protect crew not where the acryl glass is but right beneath from the sides around the waist of crew. Such measurements are usually not performed on aircraft if they are not seen necessary, because additional weight for aircrafts is usually avoided to not lower its characteristics and endurance. Not a single design of western and european attack helicopters contains a requirement for Armored glass and still Apache reachs MTOW above 10t. The WZ-10 like reported aledgley has bullet proof glass at front which comes very close to russian Attack Helicopters design for more protection since till this date and in future main objects that are fired upon Helicopters will be 7.62, 12.7, 14.5 and 20/23 mm calibers. The fuselage is also wider than any Light Attack Helicopter be it A/T-129, Tiger, Cobra/Viper or LCH.

This isn't based upon some shaky numbers floating around but on the design and requirements. The approach of design to more protective than european light attack helicopters is one indication for higher empty weight. The other part is the plating, the ribboning of armor plates at the lower mid section and cockpit itself what was reported and from ribboning is most probably aluminium alloy same as used on AH-64,Mi-24/28 Ka-50/52.
From specifications the WZ-10 comes much closer from empty and MTOW to AH-2 Rooivalk than it would come to any Tiger Version, of course this is speculation but this speculation is based upon information we know or can analyse themselfs, when the information by China is opened and confirmed we will see that the WZ-10 is much closer with empty weight and MTOW of heavy Attack Helicopters than it would be with light Attack Helicopters.

We haven't seen any of the length, width and height analysis with Z-10 vs Tiger or Rooivalk that we've seen J-20. So the statement that it's closer to Rooivalk than Tiger is without any real support other than your belief that Z-10 is designed to be more like the heavier helicopter. I don't get the sense that it's underpowered based on some of the videos I've seen. It seems like we don't have any numbers that could possibly settle this, so it's my last post on this particular issue.

But as I've said before, be very careful about sources you use when it comes to PLA. If you believe something to be closer to certain measurement based on certain reasoning, say so, rather than using sources that are not reliable.

Here is an article a while ago on Z-10 from PLA's perspective.

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[cloyce]

Do we have any specs base on official data?

 

[Black Shark]

We haven't seen any of the length, width and height analysis with Z-10 vs Tiger or Rooivalk that we've seen J-20. So the statement that it's closer to Rooivalk than Tiger is without any real support other than your belief that Z-10 is designed to be more like the heavier helicopter. I don't get the sense that it's underpowered based on some of the videos I've seen. It seems like we don't have any numbers that could possibly settle this, so it's my last post on this particular issue.

But as I've said before, be very careful about sources you use when it comes to PLA. If you believe something to be closer to certain measurement based on certain reasoning, say so, rather than using sources that are not reliable.

Here is an article a while ago on Z-10 from PLA's perspective.

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So what does your article say, because i can not understand chinese?

 

[tphuang]

So what does your article say, because i can not understand chinese?

Pretty vague honestly, just that it has really good firepower (very good hit rate),low RCS, high survivability (can take 3 to 4 Z-9s). It also has low acoustic signature and strong ECM suite allowing it to hide from detection. With radar and laser warning receiver on both side, it can dispense flares to hide itself upon detection.

It says that is has good power and can move in reverse and side ways. It says that it can reach a maximum of 300 km/h with its WZ-9 engine and maneuverability is equivalent to Eurocopter tiger, Apache and other leading attack helos. It say that it has really good acceleration compare to other helicopters and turn rate. It described a bunch of maneuvers that its capable of. Again, that's what it says.

Its cockpit has very strict requirements for height and weight of the pilots (can't be too tall or too fat). There is a display slightly smaller than ipad as the machine interface. It uses composite material for main rotor blade and uses large amount of composite material in the fuselage. It didn't state here, but I've seen videos where it talks about additional armour at each side of cockpit and other locations to give greater protection.

 

[antiterror13]

Is it true what Kamov claimed that Z-10 was designed by them, or simply just provided a basic design and trying to take credit of all the success of Z-10

 

[superdog]

Is it true what Kamov claimed that Z-10 was designed by them, or simply just provided a basic design and trying to take credit of all the success of Z-10

Kamov never claimed that "Z-10 was designed by them". Sergei Mikheyev, who worked for Kamov, claimed that Kamov developed and verified a design concept under contract with the PRC, and was not involved in any further development of the project after they delivered the preliminary design concept.

I didn't look but I think this has been discussed a long time before.

 

[antiterror13]

The Chinese must be very satisfied with the performances of Z-10, really impressive that it seems more than 100 units been produced. Any idea of the program cost and unit cost of this baby?

 

[tphuang]

The Chinese must be very satisfied with the performances of Z-10, really impressive that it seems more than 100 units been produced. Any idea of the program cost and unit cost of this baby?

not sure the exact cost, but it's said to be more than 100 million RMB per. When they use terms like that, it typically means between 100 and 200 million, but probably closer to 100 million. I'm guess about $20 million per.