Z-10 thread

[tphuang]

Then you claim the designer of WZ-10 is doing salesman talk? Why he didn't say it the best Attack helo in the world since you think he's bragging. Isn't number one or top 2 sounds better? Why must top 3?

No designer of a program is ever going to publicly criticize his own weapon system. They all overstate. As I said, using this argument to suport your point doesn't work.

Z-10
Max Takeoff Weight: ~8,000 kg
Total Engine Power: 2700 shp
shp/kg: 0.33

So instead of judging just by view videos on a prepared DEMONSTRATION. The Z-10 engines lack power when compared to other attack helicopters in service. With the weight of 2 heat shields the shp/kg would even be lower.

I'm not sure where you got the ~8000 kg from. Z-10 is somewhere between 5000 to 6000 kg. In terms of engine power and takeoff weight, it's all approximately where Eurocopter tiger is.

 

[Lion]

No designer of a program is ever going to publicly criticize his own weapon system. They all overstate. As I said, using this argument to suport your point doesn't work.

My point doesn't work. Does the airshow demo by WZ-10 is another hoax? He can claim his helo avionic system is the most advance in the world. His helo is the most stealthy in the world. But he need to say mobility? If its under powered. I repeat again. Airshow demo is the last thing in mind for a underpowered attack helo to do.

[video=youtube;vgyEL12821A]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgyEL12821A[/video]

I think the designer say something very true of his first few sentences.

 

[asif iqbal]

You sound like a 12 year old who has seen a air show for the first time, even the HAL light combat helicopter has pulled stunts at air shows, wow big deal, no external weight not weapons and no added weight any helo can do that, and the HAL is hardly in league of the Z-10 anyway

And last time I checked 5 designers and manufacturers claimed their helo is in top 3, including Turkish T-129, Russians, Italians the French so someone is clearly lying, this argument doesn’t hold

 

[Lion]

You sound like a 12 year old who has seen a air show for the first time, even the HAL light combat helicopter has pulled stunts at air shows, wow big deal, no external weight not weapons and no added weight any helo can do that, and the HAL is hardly in league of the Z-10 anyway

And last time I checked 5 designers and manufacturers claimed their helo is in top 3, including Turkish T-129, Russians, Italians the French so someone is clearly lying, this argument doesn’t hold

Really? Show me your last time 5 designer of Italian and French claim and your inclusion of HAL pulling stunt does not take away the fact, stunt show by WZ-10 show its not underpowered... Are you claiming HAL light attack helo is also under powered? I watch the video of HAL LCH. It performance is nothing compare to WZ-10. Probably you can highlight to me which part you think it did well compare to WZ-10 performance?

[video=youtube;pKF0bQZfnHI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKF0bQZfnHI[/video]

I think you are getting emotional with those name calling. By implying I am 12 years old. Does it mean you can simply talk rot without any concrete evidence? Serious?

 

[tphuang]

My point doesn't work. Does the airshow demo by WZ-10 is another hoax? He can claim his helo avionic system is the most advance in the world. His helo is the most stealthy in the world. But he need to say mobility? If its under powered. I repeat again. Airshow demo is the last thing in mind for a underpowered attack helo to do.

I think the designer say something very true of his first few sentences.

I'm not arguing either way. I'm telling you that it doesn't help your point to say "because the chief designer said what I created is greater = the product is great". I always talk about sourcing. I'm trying to get members here to critically analyze what is good to use and what is not.

It's great to refer to interviews with a chief designer about the project in question. But someone in charge of a project is always going to say good thing about it in public. This is not just a Chinese phenomenon. Pick any country and you will see this. So when you hear what they say, you have to keep that in mind.

 

[asif iqbal]

no thanks im not here to convince you, believe what you like i have better things to discuss

you have been well and truely proved wrong on all accounts

 

[Lion]

no thanks im not here to convince you, believe what you like i have better things to discuss

you have been well and truely proved wrong on all accounts

Nonsense.. After so many of your posting, I have not seen a single concrete evidence from you indicating WZ-10 is underpowered. The wrong is on you.

As for the performance you mention, as if any tom, dick , harry dedicated attack helo is able to do a full 360 loops which is wrong. So far only a few high performance attack helo with good power to weight ratio helo is able to execute that move and none of the attack helo on demo is going to carry full load to on airshow demo even the apache. The very fact you are so wrong on the significant of product demo and so quickly dismiss those facts show you are the real ignorant.

 

[Lion]

I'm not arguing either way. I'm telling you that it doesn't help your point to say "because the chief designer said what I created is greater = the product is great". I always talk about sourcing. I'm trying to get members here to critically analyze what is good to use and what is not.

It's great to refer to interviews with a chief designer about the project in question. But someone in charge of a project is always going to say good thing about it in public. This is not just a Chinese phenomenon. Pick any country and you will see this. So when you hear what they say, you have to keep that in mind.

Put aside what chief designer says. The performance of WZ-10 in Airshow means nothing to you? I can reassure you, not all and even many attack helo is able to execute those loops and moves done by WZ-10. As least, I have performance for others to prove my point. Euro Tiger and WZ-10 both share very similar spec, yet the earlier was not deemed underpowered while the latter was condemmed as sub par powered. And the very fact, PLA is inducting WZ-10 in large number with almost 70-80 in service in current configuration and still continue with no new version coming in near future. All these imply WZ-10 are very unlikely to have the problem you mention as underpowered. What concrete things you can say for yours underpowered nonsense?

None.

 

[Franklin]

Performance demonstration and real actual capabilities are extremely different. You cannot use demonstration performance as the yard stick for determining if the engines provide sufficient power or not.

Firstly, it carries zero payload, partial armor removed and minimal fuel during the demonstration. Secondly, in actual use it behaves extremely differently when it carries fully loaded fuel, 8 ATGM + 2x Unguided rocket pods + 14x 90mm unguided rockets or 36x 57mm unguided rockets + 23/30mm ammo. With full payload and fuel you really think that it can still execute those moves or fly as agile?

Demonstrations are meant to always far outperform due to its significant reduce weight.

YF-22 vs YF-23 the YF-22 removed a lot of components during its flight demonstration to reduce weight in order to have a better performance to edge out the YF-23 as the USA 5th generation fighter.

AH-64
Max Takeoff Weight: 10,433 kg
Total Engine Power: 4,000 shp
shp/kg: 0.38

AH-1Z
Max Takeoff Weight: 8,390 kg
Total Engine Power: 3,600 shp
shp/kg: 0.42

AH-2
Max Takeoff Weight: 8,750 kg
Total Engine Power: 3,800 shp
shp/kg: 0.43

Tiger
Max Takeoff Weight: 6,000 kg
Total Engine Power: 2600 shp
shp/kg: 0.43

Mi-28
Max Takeoff Weight: 11,500kg
Total Engine Power: 4,390 shp
shp/kg: 0.38

Z-10
Max Takeoff Weight: ~8,000 kg
Total Engine Power: 2700 shp
shp/kg: 0.33

So instead of judging just by view videos on a prepared DEMONSTRATION. The Z-10 engines lack power when compared to other attack helicopters in service. With the weight of 2 heat shields the shp/kg would even be lower.

The maximum take off weight of the Z-10 is 7000kg not 8000kg. So the shp/kg is little over 0,38 the same as the Apache and the Havoc.

 

[Quickie]

The main page is having problems with the sub threads. I can't access them.