Yuan Class AIP & Kilo Submarine Thread

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
What I have heard more than once is that diesel-electric subs are quieter than nuclear submarines. The fact that they can operate on battery power and that the mechanical pumps are less noisy than a nuclear submarine's steam turbine are typically pointed out as the reasons. No amount of quieting can get past that. Also any quieting techniques you use on a nuclear submarine can also be used on a diesel-electric (anechoic tiles, propeller designs, etc). This is why US carrier groups have often been surprised by diesel-electric submarines of other nations in exercises. The USA Navy mostly trains against their own nuclear submarines. They had to purchase a Swedish AIP submarine in order to train against modern diesel-electric and even that design is now out of date. In a conflict which is close to the Chinese coast, like in Taiwan, I think China would have a definitive advantage. Further away the lack of capability of Chinese nuclear submarines is an issue though. I do expect that as AIP submarine and lithium-ion battery technology gets used on Chinese submarines, and if it they enlarge them in a similar fashion to Japanese submarines then the diesel-electrics could pose a significant threat even in the high seas. They could easily strike places like Guam or Okinawa. In WWII the technology for diesel-electrics was much less advanced and the submarines operated across the entire Pacific Theater given appropriate basing and support ships.

Where the nuclear submarines shine is in high-speed, high-depth operations, on long range missions. Or for building large boats which have more capability to carry large payloads like SLBMs.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
What I have heard more than once is that diesel-electric subs are quieter than nuclear submarines. The fact that they can operate on battery power and that the mechanical pumps are less noisy than a nuclear submarine's steam turbine are typically pointed out as the reasons. No amount of quieting can get past that. Also any quieting techniques you use on a nuclear submarine can also be used on a diesel-electric (anechoic tiles, propeller designs, etc). This is why US carrier groups have often been surprised by diesel-electric submarines of other nations in exercises. The USA Navy mostly trains against their own nuclear submarines. They had to purchase a Swedish AIP submarine in order to train against modern diesel-electric and even that design is now out of date. In a conflict which is close to the Chinese coast, like in Taiwan, I think China would have a definitive advantage. Further away the lack of capability of Chinese nuclear submarines is an issue though. I do expect that as AIP submarine and lithium-ion battery technology gets used on Chinese submarines, and if it they enlarge them in a similar fashion to Japanese submarines then the diesel-electrics could pose a significant threat even in the high seas. They could easily strike places like Guam or Okinawa. In WWII the technology for diesel-electrics was much less advanced and the submarines operated across the entire Pacific Theater given appropriate basing and support ships.

Where the nuclear submarines shine is in high-speed, high-depth operations, on long range missions. Or for building large boats which have more capability to carry large payloads like SLBMs.

US is a militarily aggressive nation with campaigns spanning the entire globe. It therefore needs only nuclear subs with unlimited range and high payload storage. They weren't interested in DE subs in the past because of all the known limiting factors. Technology is improving and increasing the operative advantages that DE's intrinsically have. It is possible the USN will one day operate DE subs as well as nuclear powered ones.

For China, it is focused on defending itself and the regional waters which the US may use to launch attacks on China or Chinese interests. So DEs are a perfect fit. They can be strategically placed to make life hard for the USN but Japanese and US anti-sub is strong. Chinese subs will need plenty of cover in the air and on the surface which means they won't be venturing out too far from all the chain of support that will be required to maximise their use and effectiveness.

Most European navies facing the Soviet and now Russian "'threat" also focused on DE subs. They were in a similar situation to China, preparing against a stronger invasive force. The only difference is the US is invasive in a way that Russia isn't today.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
What I have heard more than once is that diesel-electric subs are quieter than nuclear submarines. The fact that they can operate on battery power and that the mechanical pumps are less noisy than a nuclear submarine's steam turbine are typically pointed out as the reasons. No amount of quieting can get past that. Also any quieting techniques you use on a nuclear submarine can also be used on a diesel-electric (anechoic tiles, propeller designs, etc). This is why US carrier groups have often been surprised by diesel-electric submarines of other nations in exercises. The USA Navy mostly trains against their own nuclear submarines. They had to purchase a Swedish AIP submarine in order to train against modern diesel-electric and even that design is now out of date. In a conflict which is close to the Chinese coast, like in Taiwan, I think China would have a definitive advantage. Further away the lack of capability of Chinese nuclear submarines is an issue though. I do expect that as AIP submarine and lithium-ion battery technology gets used on Chinese submarines, and if it they enlarge them in a similar fashion to Japanese submarines then the diesel-electrics could pose a significant threat even in the high seas. They could easily strike places like Guam or Okinawa. In WWII the technology for diesel-electrics was much less advanced and the submarines operated across the entire Pacific Theater given appropriate basing and support ships.

Where the nuclear submarines shine is in high-speed, high-depth operations, on long range missions. Or for building large boats which have more capability to carry large payloads like SLBMs.

Mechanical pumps are major source of noise, and they are probably more noisier than steam turbine. The pumps run at a much lower speed than turbine, creating lower frequency vibration which travels much further than high frequency noise from turbine, especially true in water. It is the same reason for radio waves that long wave radio reaches thousands kilometers while VHF/UHF only hundreds.

DE subs' advantage is that they don't have any pumps, they run on electrical motors under water. Sterling engine AIP still has pistons running on low RPM, a bit noisier. DE is similar as fuel-cell based AIP.

Regarding Li-Ion based sub in China, I think China has chosen low-pressure, low-temperature nuclear-electrical approach to gain the unlimited endurance as a big SSN, but smaller and quieter than big SSN. The noise level of this approach is probably somewhere between DE/fuel-cell AIP and big SSN, somewhere around Sterling AIP or the French MESMA (steam turbine).

Li-Ion sub does have the advantage of staying under water for longer days, say 7 days vs. 2 days of Lead battery based sub, but never comparable to a nuclear based one. Of course, if it is safe, replacing lead battery is always a good choice, why not. Note, even the sterling based AIP has batteries.

So, the significance of recent Japanese move is NOT Li-Ion battery, it is there decision to use battery only.

I have a feeling that China is not going after this battery only approach.
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
What I have heard more than once is that diesel-electric subs are quieter than nuclear submarines. The fact that they can operate on battery power and that the mechanical pumps are less noisy than a nuclear submarine's steam turbine are typically pointed out as the reasons. No amount of quieting can get past that. Also any quieting techniques you use on a nuclear submarine can also be used on a diesel-electric (anechoic tiles, propeller designs, etc). This is why US carrier groups have often been surprised by diesel-electric submarines of other nations in exercises. The USA Navy mostly trains against their own nuclear submarines. They had to purchase a Swedish AIP submarine in order to train against modern diesel-electric and even that design is now out of date. In a conflict which is close to the Chinese coast, like in Taiwan, I think China would have a definitive advantage. Further away the lack of capability of Chinese nuclear submarines is an issue though. I do expect that as AIP submarine and lithium-ion battery technology gets used on Chinese submarines, and if it they enlarge them in a similar fashion to Japanese submarines then the diesel-electrics could pose a significant threat even in the high seas. They could easily strike places like Guam or Okinawa. In WWII the technology for diesel-electrics was much less advanced and the submarines operated across the entire Pacific Theater given appropriate basing and support ships.

Where the nuclear submarines shine is in high-speed, high-depth operations, on long range missions. Or for building large boats which have more capability to carry large payloads like SLBMs.
The steam turbine is not the only noisy part of a nuclear sub.
It needs feed water pumps as well, those are noisy parts.

And the pumps are usually centrifuge ones, means they are as noisy as the turbines.

And no one can forget that the water in a reactor going through two phase change, from water to gas, and from gas to water again.

Check how noisy can be a kettle .

On new designs they try to use gravity feed to eliminate the need of pump at small speed, and I presume the best part of the past half hundred years of submarine development was about how to mitigate the noise of boiling water : )

But it is still noisy, if there is megawatts of power flowing then you will get noise from it.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
Is there any official data on the noise level of PLAN diesel electric submarines? There’s a lot of talk about nuclear submarines, but it seems like the lion’s share of investment have gone into diesel electrics.

There was that rather impressive feat of surfacing undetected spitting distance from a USN carrier inside a battle group, and Yuans are supposed to be a significant upgrade over Songs. But I can’t find any direct comparisons of noise levels.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Things like noise levels are typically classified data. Even max depth surface and max speed dived are usually only listed as above some number.
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
Jiangnan Shipyard released a short footage shows the launch of new SSK.
View attachment 49490
Comparing to 039B: larger stern planes, smaller sail/fin in the middle, bow planes instead of sail planes, no flank array sonar.
View attachment 49491

Can someone use a known reference frame to gauge the size of this new sub?

BTW here is a video:
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UPDATE: the name is apparently "Project H2600"
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Chinese SSK fleet approximately

Type 039A/B/C 14 units
039/039G 16 units
Kilo 12 units
035/035G 12 units
032 1 unit

53 x SSK
 
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