Thanks for the info and thanks for the third option, which is closer to my position. I wish the US general election follows a similar path.
Where do the Members of SDF stand on the issue of the War in the Ukraine?
- Thread starter SampanViking
- Start date
I think the point of having only two options was to pick and choose which side you think is more right. Unless you are directly affected by the war (i.e. Russian or Ukrainian) most people are going to sit on the fence and be neutral.
As @SampanViking pointed out there are situations where being a neutral isn't an option. E.g. if a Russian or Ukrainian soldier points a gun at your face.
As @SampanViking pointed out there are situations where being a neutral isn't an option. E.g. if a Russian or Ukrainian soldier points a gun at your face.
Black Shark
Junior Member
Just like many russian speakers in Europe right now are forced to choose a side and face consequences like jail time or losing their jobs if it is not the "correct" one.
If people find out or know that you are russian they often will either ask you directly or sneak questions into conversations to know your opinion. There was never such a blatant propaganda war ever for any war. We are currently seeing de-humanization face of russians which is already visible in the attitude and blunt statements by average people calling russians fascists or animals.
For the prior discussion about keeping politics out of military forum and discussion about conflicts is impossible and would only show great ignorance. No war or conflict was fought just out of boredom and the geopolitical situation and circumstances needs to be known otherwise it is impossible to discuss anything about the conflict. There is a good reason why war is extension of diplomacy by other means.
I'll say my last words on this subject to avoid derailing another thread.
1) Ukraine was never in NATO and had no serious plans to join. NATO made some vague promise in 2008 that everyone knew would amount to nothing. Admitting Ukraine would be too dangerous. Let's be very clear here: although Russia is absolutely and justifiably furious about NATO's expansion since the Cold War, its invasion this year was not primarily about keeping Ukraine out of NATO. It was about bringing Ukraine back in line, back into its sphere of influence. This was about Putin getting upset that Ukraine was drifting further and further away from Russia, politically (with the fall of Yanukovych and the rise of hard-right nationalism in Ukraine), militarily (with NATO weapons and advisers flooding the country), economically (with Ukraine prioritizing Western deals and investments), and culturally (with the marginalization of the Russian language, the renaming of Russian cities and streets, the extinguishing of eternal flames honoring the Soviet war dead, etc).
2) The United States and Western Europe obviously supported the Maidan coup, but that doesn't mean they orchestrated the proceedings, so to speak. The tens of thousands of people who showed up in the streets of Kyiv to protest Yanukovuch did so because they genuinely wanted an economic future aligned with Europe, not with Russia. Now, I think that Yanukovych was totally right to reject the economic "aid package" from the Europeans, since it was filled with the usual IMF-inspired "structural adjustment" nonsense (aka fiscal austerity, privatize everything and give lucrative state assets to a bunch of corrupt capitalists, lower taxes and regulations, etc). He went for the Russian deal because Russia offered him $15 billion with basically no strings attached. But that move cost him politically and things spiraled out of control. In any case, I don't think the US and the West violated Ukraine's sovereignty any more or less than whatever the Russians were doing all along. But even if we all accept that Maidan was a Western conspiracy with anti-Russian forces in Ukraine, it's still not the same thing as invading another country's territory. Russia was conspiring all along just like the Americans; it just got a raw deal and didn't like the result!
3) This conflict is now heading into a war of attrition. The Russians don't have enough troops for an outright knockout unless they declare war and order a general mobilization. There are rumors Putin might finally pull the trigger on that decision. Let's wait and see.
Ukraine are de facto in NATO already. The US and NATO response has been a clear indication of this.
Hah. You clearly don't know the history. Ukraine sent troops on missions to Iraq and Afghanistan and trained with NATO troops. And even before this latest escalation they were being funded and supplied with NATO weapons.
Why can't it be both?
Hah. Hear the leaked conversation of Victoria Nuland. "Yats is the guy". The US even picked the post coup government.
I am sure there were lots of useful idiots and foreign funded NGO protesters as usual. The Umbrella Movement in Hong Kong was supposedly spontaneous too.
What, actively sponsoring a coup? Sending their own politicians to the country to openly manifest their favor to anti-government protesters? And guess what, of course Russia wasn't interested in Ukraine going into the EU camp if it meant severing trade links with Russia. At that time Russia and Ukraine were each other's largest trade partners. Ukraine built the engines they used in their combat ships and helicopters. Well not anymore.
So, Russia would just let them continue to amass a coalition of forces where they would have Poland, Ukraine, Romania and Belarus (yep, they tried a coup there as well just recently) around 108 million people. At the same time NATO are breaking the Conventional Forces in Europe Treaty and the US cancelled its participation in the INF Treaty. You know what, Russia has seen that movie before. So before they built a battering ram against Russia, they will just smash that battering ram. The US basically wanted those countries to act like a belt to contain Russia and cut its sea access in the Baltic and the Black Sea. Then they might try to cause political instability in Russia and send in their "peacekeeping" force directly into Moscow like they did in Yugoslavia. Russia has seen that movie when the Poles invaded Moscow and started the Time of Troubles. Well it won't happen anymore.
I think I said this before, but you guys need to read about the Norman Conquest of England more. There is more to fighting than numbers.
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I actually like this thread. So far, posts are reasoned and measured. Between lines, we all can learn a few things about the other side(s).
My general takes on this war include:
(1) As @gelgoog responded to @Bill Blazo, we need to look at the broader context between 1991 and 2022. We can argue if there ever was a master plan of the west. But dots can be connected to a picture in which it is the west that has been fucking up Russian geopolitical interests. You can pick a dot here and there and argue. But the big picture is that Russia had been playing defense and losing, until this war.
(2) If the west is not capable of looking at the world as a whole world, then we are bound to a WWIII. When that happens, that would be the west's third World War. By then, every one in the west is responsible for what they have brought to the mankind - three consecutive worst wars in human history.
(3) Ultimately, we have to judge the war on its political rationale. Politics says it is all western. Arguing otherwise would be totally beyond me.
My general takes on this war include:
(1) As @gelgoog responded to @Bill Blazo, we need to look at the broader context between 1991 and 2022. We can argue if there ever was a master plan of the west. But dots can be connected to a picture in which it is the west that has been fucking up Russian geopolitical interests. You can pick a dot here and there and argue. But the big picture is that Russia had been playing defense and losing, until this war.
(2) If the west is not capable of looking at the world as a whole world, then we are bound to a WWIII. When that happens, that would be the west's third World War. By then, every one in the west is responsible for what they have brought to the mankind - three consecutive worst wars in human history.
(3) Ultimately, we have to judge the war on its political rationale. Politics says it is all western. Arguing otherwise would be totally beyond me.
Living in Canada, of course someone would have to be pro-western. That is their home!
However, democracy/freedom is no guarantee that the government will act in the best interests of the people. As part of NATO, Canada bombed the s**t out of Belgrade ("...a European city!"). There are a lot of Serbians here, they were not happy that the Canadian government put their relatives lives at risk. Freedom to speak out did not stop the bombs from falling.
No, you don't go to jail, but as he mentioned, you are made out to be some kind of pariah. Do you think the government goes on TV and talks about how they are wrong to bomb people? No, they say they are defending Liberty/Freedom/Democracy/Human Rights/Protection from Genocide, etc. etc. So if you say, "This is wrong, the government shouldn't do it", now everyone thinks you are against Human Rights!
Okay, so you are saying Western freedom is greater than Russian freedom? Does the top student compare themselves with the bottom?
Black Shark
Junior Member
1-2) Watch Alexej Arestovich's speech in 2019 where he clearly states, that the price for the Ukraine to join NATO is a big war with Russia. The Ukrainians got behind closed doors promises to get a membership in NATO and ultimately in EU if they will pay the price in blood and "beat" Russia in war. Pay attention to his speech from 2019 and it will become clear that he couldn't pull this out of his rear without people from the West (US) telling the Ukrainians what they had to do.
The US started the coup on Maidan with their paid stooges like Yarosh, Poroshenko, Arestovich and even western politicians were on a DEMONSTRATION to steer up the sentiment that the West supports and wants the Maidanists to win and overthrow the government.
Just imagine for a second russian politicians like Lavrov, Zirenovsky would participate in the trucker's protest in canada and promise better conditions and freedom and better economy ties if they change the regime. Hell, the West fears russian meddling in US elections which never took place and by the forgotten civilizations what would happen if the would do it physically present in a neighbouring country like Canada and steer up Anti-americanism?
Later on Maidan there were aggitators on boiling up the mood which eventually let to right out murders behavior with molotov cocktails and foreign special forces shooting with sniper rifles in the backs of "protesters" and on Berkut police.
If you check pictures of Maidan from 2015 you will see that most trees were cut off since some of them contained bullets from those very snipers from the "protesters" side which would proof the trajectory and would raise evidence and questions.
There is no doubt about foreign (western) coup and murder of civilians and berkut police.
The sovereignity was off the table after 2004 on first Maidan coup attempt and definitly at 2014 when the coup succeeded to unleash war with russian speaking people on Donbass just to piss off the Russians to attack.
Folks,
So admin team has been having discussions privately on what to do with Ukraine thread. Of course, as a discussion forum, my goal is to provide an avenue for people to discuss important current global affairs with great military and geostrategic importance. One of our challenge with highly contentious topics like Ukraine-Russia war is the fact that emotions run high on both sides which results overwhelming rule violations, post reports to mod team, and with limited number moderators, it is almost impossible to moderate thread which generates hundreds of messages within few hours.
So, one of the ideas was to seek help from the users (junior, senior and VIP members) who can help us take on some moderator responsibilities for Ukraine War thread only(or the sub-forum containing the Ukraine war thread as it is not possible to have per thread mods). While current mod and myself will be around, these "dedicated" mods will focus only on the ukraine war thread, serve as buffer, filter out and take care of minor squabbles, and only escalate major issues to mod team or myself.
This is a new idea, lets see if it works? If you think you have the ability to look beyond your own bias, have control of your own emotions when faced with different opinion than yours, and have time to help us moderate then please reach out to me.
So admin team has been having discussions privately on what to do with Ukraine thread. Of course, as a discussion forum, my goal is to provide an avenue for people to discuss important current global affairs with great military and geostrategic importance. One of our challenge with highly contentious topics like Ukraine-Russia war is the fact that emotions run high on both sides which results overwhelming rule violations, post reports to mod team, and with limited number moderators, it is almost impossible to moderate thread which generates hundreds of messages within few hours.
So, one of the ideas was to seek help from the users (junior, senior and VIP members) who can help us take on some moderator responsibilities for Ukraine War thread only(or the sub-forum containing the Ukraine war thread as it is not possible to have per thread mods). While current mod and myself will be around, these "dedicated" mods will focus only on the ukraine war thread, serve as buffer, filter out and take care of minor squabbles, and only escalate major issues to mod team or myself.
This is a new idea, lets see if it works? If you think you have the ability to look beyond your own bias, have control of your own emotions when faced with different opinion than yours, and have time to help us moderate then please reach out to me.
I am neutral. I don't care about Russia, and I don't give a damn about Ukraine either. I don't particularly want to be associated as being pro or against either side. But I do love talking about Russian weapons and technology, and for some reason that inevitably gets me dragged along by certain crowd as part of the 'pro-Russia' camp. It seems like westerners that are emotionally invested in this conflict cannot view anything anyone says about Russian or Ukrainian military forces or technology outside of the lens of information warfare. It's like, if you want to talk about Russia, you better echo Western/Ukrainian viewpoints, or else you are automatically pro-Putin.
That is what absolutely infuriates me about the brewing anti-Russia sentiment in the West - you are either with us, or you are against us.
Eurasia NI
That is what absolutely infuriates me about the brewing anti-Russia sentiment in the West - you are either with us, or you are against us.
Eurasia NI