Video: Why a strong military is of the utmost importance to China

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
1. No one here, except you, mentioned war between US and China

only in response to criticism on the size of the US military



3. It's against the rules of this forum to pit one country against another.

Thanyou for the timely reminder. Its easy to be lulled into doing it when theres been so many discussions on how things would happen over Taiwan and what Americas response would be that have been allowed to stand. Aren't those threads essentially pitting one country up against another.

---------- Post added at 03:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:15 PM ----------

=plawolf;178564

Hu never said 'prepare for war' as has already been pointed out. It seem more like an intentional mistranslation by the usual suspects to hype up their China-threat agenda to try and justify their own ridiculously inflated defense budgets.
Its more a case of the usual suspects using semantics to spin their way out of a clanger.


The level of bias and amenity you obviously hold towards China is clear for all to see, and it is fast approaching trolling levels of blind hatred that I have little interest in waste my time with as I cannot see how any attempt to reason with someone who thinks like this will yield anything but more hate filled diatribe.

FFS Spare me the drama, A dislike for a reigme and its behaviour does not translate into the dislike for a countryor its people.

The level of bias and amenity you obviously hold towards the West/USA in many of your posts is clear for all to see and approches trolling levels of blind hatred .
It frequently amazes me how people can preach the cause for the PRC while residing in the safety of the west.




Perhaps you would care to refresh your history, since if you think China doesn't doesn't have a sh-t show of wining a war against the U.S.this century now, I wonder what you reckon China's chances were in 1950? How exactly did that work out for America? :rolleyes:

THey have more than enough reasonto be satisfied, as it prevented the Communist north from achieving their objective.....and all the rest :p

---------- Post added at 04:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:45 PM ----------

Whatever your problem is, deal with it like an adult, because if you keep behaving like a spoilt troll, people will start treating you as one.
Point Taken


And why is that? Because the US dropped a loyal ally when they didn't need them anymore.

Pakistan a loyal ally of the U.S.? You should have posted that in the humorous thread.
 
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Kurt

Junior Member
There's a difference between US and Chinese foreign policy. If you take for example Pakistan, the US gives them money for weapons as well as civilian aid. This aid allows to run a government that is to a reduced degree dependent on internal economic development.
The sheme is very typical of many aid receiving or natural resource exploitation dependent or both countries and most of them are at least formally in the camp of US alliance. Such foreign aid can help people master a current crisis as well as on a permanent basis destroy low level economic developments by a cheap abundance from the afluent countries (including for example substituted EU agrarian products that destroy the African chicken market).
China by contrast gave Pakistan the necessary parts for assembling nuclear weapons in time to reply to the official Indian nuclear armament declaration (India had tested successfully decades before that) and China offers much cheaper military hardware with most likely more bang for the buck. China does provide development help to other countries, but is still herself a receiver of foreign aid money (the German debate of ending these subsidies resulted in a major diplomatic clash between China and Germany). In the Western media the Chinese aid contributions after catastrophies are often depicted as focused more on appearance on their TV than actual help.
From the reports we receive from Africa, China seems to be interested in economic development there to enhance their own economic development in China. Concerning political system, they aren't choosy, but they enable local elites to get richer and have even more of a hold on power and economic clout augmentation without at least some corrective. The Chinese means are different from the Western means and much easier to target because of their lack of subtility in twisting the systems to their needs. It reflects the traditional differences between old and new timocracy.

The Chinese are quite right that these different approaches do lead to conflicts of interest and an enhanced Chinese ability of global power projection would ensure greater safety for their global economic interests. Unlike previously, China is now fully aware that to be the center of the world is not a given, but requires constant effort and awareness. This country in East Asia will never again be what it once was from a global perspective, a regional great power without any systemic cultural and economical challenger with only foreign military threats.
 

solarz

Brigadier
From the reports we receive from Africa, China seems to be interested in economic development there to enhance their own economic development in China. Concerning political system, they aren't choosy, but they enable local elites to get richer and have even more of a hold on power and economic clout augmentation without at least some corrective.

That is not true at all:

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The West likes to toot its own horn for giving aid to Africa, but what has 50 years of Western aid achieved in Africa?

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Those critics, however, often overlook the fact the Chinese have filled a void left by western countries that have fled Africa. True, China invests heavily in odious regimes, but Beijing takes the view that jobs, food and basic necessities are the only human rights that matter in most African countries.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
The level of bias and amenity you obviously hold towards the West/USA in many of your posts is also clear for all to see and approches trolling levels of blind hatred .
It frequently amazes me how people can preach the cause for the PRC while residing in the safety of the west.

Hah, don't you mean the enlightenment of the west? In which case the sentence would make more sense, as it would be logical to support a regime once you see how the world actually works.

That is, the so called freedom of information you can have in the west compared to china doesn't necessarily convert a PRC born or national against their country, but rather the inconsistencies you'll see in "free" western media compared with what is the reality of knowing the country they write of, makes one turn against that BS.

Your last sentence is interesting though -- I once had a taiwanese friend who asked me why my parents moved to NZ. I answered "the environment". He replied "ah the political environment". I said "no, I mean trees".
Basically what you're saying (correct me if i'm wrong) is that there is indeed a new cold war going on, and you are either on one side or the other (the word "safety"). If you "defect"/immigrate to "the west" then you must immediately renounce all support for your "previous" homeland.
But that's not exactly the case in reality.

Or maybe we're all wumao trololol.
 

no_name

Colonel
One of my lecturers migrated from UK with his family during the 60s due to the tense cold war atmosphere and the fact that Britain along with western Europe would be the first to get toasted in a WWII situation between NATO and soviet block. His parents were trying to find the most distant country away from the UK that is english-speaking. (the official language of NZ is actually Maori) That doesn't mean he dislike UK or love NZ more.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Its not lack of gratitude, the pakistanis have demonstrated more than once that Americas presence is unwelcome, so they would only be obliging.

Yeah post Cold War. Go ahead and forget that didn't happen until the US dropped them in favor of India. The Pakistanis didn't break the trust. You did.

---------- Post added at 06:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:29 PM ----------

There's a difference between US and Chinese foreign policy. If you take for example Pakistan, the US gives them money for weapons as well as civilian aid. This aid allows to run a government that is to a reduced degree dependent on internal economic development.
The sheme is very typical of many aid receiving or natural resource exploitation dependent or both countries and most of them are at least formally in the camp of US alliance. Such foreign aid can help people master a current crisis as well as on a permanent basis destroy low level economic developments by a cheap abundance from the afluent countries (including for example substituted EU agrarian products that destroy the African chicken market).
China by contrast gave Pakistan the necessary parts for assembling nuclear weapons in time to reply to the official Indian nuclear armament declaration (India had tested successfully decades before that) and China offers much cheaper military hardware with most likely more bang for the buck. China does provide development help to other countries, but is still herself a receiver of foreign aid money (the German debate of ending these subsidies resulted in a major diplomatic clash between China and Germany). In the Western media the Chinese aid contributions after catastrophies are often depicted as focused more on appearance on their TV than actual help.
From the reports we receive from Africa, China seems to be interested in economic development there to enhance their own economic development in China. Concerning political system, they aren't choosy, but they enable local elites to get richer and have even more of a hold on power and economic clout augmentation without at least some corrective. The Chinese means are different from the Western means and much easier to target because of their lack of subtility in twisting the systems to their needs. It reflects the traditional differences between old and new timocracy.

The Chinese are quite right that these different approaches do lead to conflicts of interest and an enhanced Chinese ability of global power projection would ensure greater safety for their global economic interests. Unlike previously, China is now fully aware that to be the center of the world is not a given, but requires constant effort and awareness. This country in East Asia will never again be what it once was from a global perspective, a regional great power without any systemic cultural and economical challenger with only foreign military threats.

That contradicts dropping a loyal Cold War ally just because they weren't needed anymore. Who's the one looking out for their self-interest? Are you going to bring up terrorism that only happened as a result of being betrayed? Maybe you have a time machine and saw the future to which is why a selfless country would drop a loyal ally. Pretty hypocritical to hold out China as a contrast. Chinese foreign aid no matter how you spin it has spurred global growth. Africa has experienced insignificant growth throughout colonialism and the Cold War until China started giving assistance.


Let's all remember what some are trying to divert from and molest the true meaning of words for their own gain. If you were motivated by altruism and selflessness, then you wouldn't expect to be rewarded. Yet some do and even more get angry over it when it's not given. That is true selfishness.
 
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Kurt

Junior Member
That is not true at all:

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The West likes to toot its own horn for giving aid to Africa, but what has 50 years of Western aid achieved in Africa?

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Let's clarify some misunderstandings. The Western aid is not there to aid. It's a short term-feeding on dependancy in order to destroy longterm development while feeling good about it and paying lots of professionals that can tell you how good you are at being good. It's the old indulgence trade (you could buy indulgence for money)
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with new means.

I spelled out that Western news paint a certain picture of China's African adventures. I never claimed to know the whole truth nor that they present it. Fighting corruption seems like something many Chinese would like to have re-imported because "my father is someone in the Chinese security, so law doesn't apply to me" sucks.
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bladerunner

Banned Idiot
That is, the so called freedom of information you can have in the west compared to china doesn't necessarily convert a PRC born or national against their country, but rather the inconsistencies you'll see in "free" western media compared with what is the reality of knowing the country they write of, makes one turn against that BS.

You may have seen Maying Ips (the dean of Asian studies at Akld Uni) recent puublication.as regards Chinese identifying with their homeland. ( im a little hazy on some aspects and might mistakenly attribute something to her that was actually said by someone else...... so a little tolerance ok?

Basically she said that a poll had revealed that 95% of mainland Chinese who immigrated to NZ indicated that their loyalty remained with China. In about turn what was more surprising was the increasing number of young , several generations removed from their ancestral homeland and motivated by the increasing prominence of China had expressed some level of identification/interest to their ancestral land.
IMO having been to China what china chooses to show is not what you really get in China. These young who had never been to China get totally mislead by the B.S. emanating out of China. That could easily be the situation with a few Chinese in this forum.


Your last sentence is interesting though -- I once had a taiwanese friend who asked me why my parents moved to NZ. I answered "the environment". He replied "ah the political environment". I said "no, I mean trees".
Basically what you're saying (correct me if i'm wrong) is that there is indeed a new cold war going on, and you are either on one side or the other (the word "safety"). If you "defect"/immigrate to "the west" then you must immediately renounce all support for your "previous" homeland.
But that's not exactly the case in reality.

Or maybe we're all wumao trololol.

I should think there is an expectation that if one takes up citizenship, ones loyalty is then transferred. If its residency or long term visit , theres a bit of leeway, however I think I would be alot more circumspect in expressing my preference.
At the start of WW2 there was only one Chinese who fought in the NZ army in Crete/African campaign His name was Alec Wong and a friend of the family. He was born in NZ and would possibly have been conscripted but he chose to volunteer.
The rest of the Chinese males of military age made it quite plain that it wasn't their fight and therefore they weren't interested in volunteering .
To cut the story short all nz troops transited through Australia on their way to the middle east and to facilitate their movement, were given visa waivers including all nationalities who fought on behalf of NZ who weren'.t citizens.
Fast forward to peace time, all these nationalities carried on with their automatic visa free entry to Australia except the Chinese. There was this one particular nasty australian in wellington who took particular delight in not processing Chinese visa applications in time for travel.
This attracted the attention of the "maying ip types" who claimed of prejudice etc etc.. Was she right or did the chinese deserve that treatment.
P.S. a few chinese did volunteer (late 43-44) certainly after the japanese entered the war. But they went into the airforce and did their training in Canada. I don't think any saw active service and because there was no need to go to Australia, the visa status went unaltered.

Back to the Article
THe same article talks about this girl who obtained P.R. after gaining some business qualification.Unfortunately we do not know whether its a genuine Uni. degree or some diploma thing from those degree mills that have become established to help someone gain P.R. and as a P.R. one has the right to vote . However she did not feel she could identify with NZ.so when it came to issues concerning China Versus NZ , she would side with China. this brings interesting things into play such as the "CRAYFAR DEAL" if you know what i mean.
So whats she doing in NZ then? , instead of us having to make her feel NZ wants her, she should be saying to herself "what can I do to feel part of NZ."

---------- Post added at 06:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:56 AM ----------

One of my lecturers migrated from UK with his family during the 60s due to the tense cold war atmosphere and the fact that Britain along with western Europe would be the first to get toasted in a WWII situation between NATO and soviet block. His parents were trying to find the most distant country away from the UK that is english-speaking. (the official language of NZ is actually Maori) That doesn't mean he dislike UK or love NZ more.

Ummmm I think your example doesn't apply here

For one thing the loyalty question does not come about. While im not familiar with the finer points of the constitution and how it actually translates, I think the question of loyalty does not apply here because the Queen is the head of state of both countries. and its to her where our loyalty is pledged to.

Secondly Im pretty sure maori was not an offcial language then . If it was in the statutute books , it certainly wasnt practiced because certainly in the 50's and maybe very early 60's children were punished if caught speaking maori during school. A short sharp wack across the knuckles/hand was a common occurrence for daring to speak it.
 
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plawolf

Lieutenant General
FFS Spare me the drama, A dislike for a reigme and its behaviour does not translate into the dislike for a countryor its people.

Spare us the fake outrage and righteous indignation, it is as transparent as it is hollow.

It is funny you can claim that you have nothing against the Chinese people when you rail so hard against the exact same people you claim to have no amenity towards with clangers like these:

It frequently amazes me how people can preach the cause for the PRC while residing in the safety of the west.

There was this one particular nasty australian in wellington who took particular delight in not processing Chinese visa applications in time for travel.
This attracted the attention of the "maying ip types" who claimed of prejudice etc etc.. Was she right or did the chinese deserve that treatment.

I should think there is an expectation that if one takes up citizenship, ones loyalty is then transferred.

So whats she doing in NZ then? , instead of us having to make her feel NZ wants her, she should be saying to herself "what can I do to feel part of NZ."

And it goes on and on and on. Seems like to me you have quite a few problems with the Chinese people, especially those in NZ that you went off on this massive tangent with these stroppy rants that has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic here.

Actions speak far louder than words buddy, and your actions paint a pretty clear picture that no amount of spinning or weaseling from you can hope to shake.

It's pretty sad really.

The level of bias and amenity you obviously hold towards the West/USA in many of your posts is clear for all to see and approches trolling levels of blind hatred .

So you can use the copy and paste functions, well done! It's funny, I haven't encountered this 'repeat whatever they said back to them' form of debate since my days in the playground.

How old exactly are you? As I hope you are mature enough to realize that parroting what someone says right back to them is about as convincing a form of argument as mooning someone.

It frequently amazes me how people can preach the cause for the PRC while residing in the safety of the west.

So wow, what respect for one's rights of free speech and freedom or belief and tolerance of different views and opinions you have.

And it amuses me that you think any of the Chinese who are preaching the cause for the PRC while residing in the west would have any concerns about their personal safety if they were to go back to the PRC, and believe me, the overwhelming majority of them do go back to China, because it is extremely rare for overseas Chinese to not have relatives back home in China.

It seems to me you have it in your mind what a 'good Chinaman' should and shouldn't do, and is upset because so very few overseas Chinese are conducting themselves in a manner you see as appropriate and think these 'bad Chinaman' shouldn't be allowed to stay, or should be forced to conform.

Maybe you would like to ban them all from having pictures of Hu JinTao or Wei JiaBao, and give them NZ patriotic re-education by making them recite how much they love their new motherland and renounce their old one? :rolleyes:

THey have more than enough reasonto be satisfied, as it prevented the Communist north from achieving their objective.....and all the rest :p


Yes, spoken like a true spin doctor, although a bad one it must be said. :rolleyes:

And I see you have edited your original post to take out your point about the victors getting to write history.

If you believe in something, at least have the balls to go on record and stay on record as believing it instead of trying to hide what you believe in.

The sad truth is that you are far from the only person in the west or east who believe that, because most tragic of all, it is the truth. And that is another reason why China is determined to arm up - you can have all the reason and just cause in the world, but if the other guy has bigger guns, history will still remember you as the aggressor and bad guy after he has murdered and pillage his way through your homeland.

IMO having been to China what china chooses to show is not what you really get in China.

And that would make China unique in the world. :rolleyes:

It is hilarious that westerns can go to China and spend a few weeks there and think they know the place. I have spent half my life there, and I am still learning new things every time I go back.

I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that when you went to China, you went out of your way to look for the bad things that were happening.

Well what exactly did you expect? Nowhere is perfect, and if you go digging for dirt, you will find it. Anywhere. You can find poverty, inequality, injustice, corruption and worse in every city in every country in the world. But just because you went looking and found these things does not, but any stretch means that that is all there is in a country.

These young who had never been to China get totally mislead by the B.S. emanating out of China. That could easily be the situation with a few Chinese in this forum.

What presumptuous BS. How many overseas Chinese do you know who has never been back to China or has no family connections whatsoever with China? Funnily enough, if you do find overseas Chinese like that, chances are they will be amongst the 5% shown in the poll you quoted as having no sense of loyalty towards China.

Pray tell where and what form these 'misleading BS emanating out of China' takes? How are the evil devious Chinese poisoning the minds of young innocent NZ Chinese? :rolleyes:

And please, because you turn to your default answer of the Chinese media, bare in mind that many of those second or 3rd generation Chinese will not have a very good grasp of Chinese, and even those who are proficient in it will find it hard and will much prefer to read and listen in English.

Have you seen CCTV's english service or read the english version of Chinese 'mouthpiece' papers? Don't make us laugh by suggesting that those will brainwash anyone.

As I pointed out because, the vast majority of overseas Chinese still have family connections in China, and most of them visit China. That is where they are getting their information from and forming that form the basis of their beliefs and opinions.

And do you know what is making these overseas Chinese even more passionately in support of China? The way the western media distorts, spins and is so highly selective of how it reports on China.

These people know more about China's true problems and strengths than someone like you ever could hope to, and the western media's bumbling attempts to vilify and portray China in the worst possible light only serves to make these people more pro-China.

I should think there is an expectation that if one takes up citizenship, ones loyalty is then transferred. If its residency or long term visit , theres a bit of leeway, however I think I would be alot more circumspect in expressing my preference.

And now we are onto immigration policy. Is this anything other than a massive rant vent from you?

At the start of WW2 there was only one Chinese who fought in the NZ army in Crete/African campaign His name was Alec Wong and a friend of the family. He was born in NZ and would possibly have been conscripted but he chose to volunteer.
The rest of the Chinese males of military age made it quite plain that it wasn't their fight and therefore they weren't interested in volunteering .

Funny, and here was I thinking volunteering meant you had a choice. :rolleyes:

There was this one particular nasty australian in wellington who took particular delight in not processing Chinese visa applications in time for travel.
This attracted the attention of the "maying ip types" who claimed of prejudice etc etc.. Was she right or did the chinese deserve that treatment.

So, you openly admit that this guy was 'nasty', and took 'particular delight in not processing Chinese visa applications in time for travel'. Which made it perfectly clear that he was a racist bigot who was abusing his position to unlawfully and purposely persecute an ethnic minority, and yet still have to bare faced cheek to try and spin this as Chinese seeking preferential treatment? Your moral compass is so off it's hard to believe. :rolleyes:

THe same article talks about this girl who obtained P.R. after gaining some business qualification.Unfortunately we do not know whether its a genuine Uni. degree or some diploma thing from those degree mills that have become established to help someone gain P.R. and as a P.R. one has the right to vote .

So, there is absolutely no evidence that this girl obtained her qualification other than through the proper method, yet you saw the need to make a completely baseless slur on her. And the reason you did so? Because he is Chinese. So much for not having a problem against Chinese. :rolleyes:

However she did not feel she could identify with NZ.so when it came to issues concerning China Versus NZ , she would side with China. this brings interesting things into play such as the "CRAYFAR DEAL" if you know what i mean.
So whats she doing in NZ then? , instead of us having to make her feel NZ wants her, she should be saying to herself "what can I do to feel part of NZ."

So only people who are loyal to NZ are allowed to be in NZ? Not even Hitler or Stalin went so far with their own nationalism drives. :rolleyes:
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
You may have seen Maying Ips (the dean of Asian studies at Akld Uni) recent puublication.as regards Chinese identifying with their homeland. ( im a little hazy on some aspects and might mistakenly attribute something to her that was actually said by someone else...... so a little tolerance ok?

Basically she said that a poll had revealed that 95% of mainland Chinese who immigrated to NZ indicated that their loyalty remained with China. In about turn what was more surprising was the increasing number of young , several generations removed from their ancestral homeland and motivated by the increasing prominence of China had expressed some level of identification/interest to their ancestral land.
IMO having been to China what china chooses to show is not what you really get in China. These young who had never been to China get totally mislead by the B.S. emanating out of China. That could easily be the situation with a few Chinese in this forum.

The problem with your reasoning is that you assume "support" for china is dependent on china's "achievements" etc. I feel without western media BS contrasting with the truth (from parents who were there during the years of controversy; my grandparents were there during the 1940s, my mother was a student during 1989 and went to TAM too), there would be far less support from nationals, or children from nationals, abroad.

Besides, shouldn't people in the west with "free information" be able to tell BS from non BS? As always the only good propaganda is when you don't know it is, but still, almost everyone immediately assumes the news coming from "PRC mouthpieces" is propaganda anyway, so they rely on western sources instead (remember, you don't know it's propaganda :) )

I should think there is an expectation that if one takes up citizenship, ones loyalty is then transferred. If its residency or long term visit , theres a bit of leeway, however I think I would be alot more circumspect in expressing my preference.

---

Back to the Article
THe same article talks about this girl who obtained P.R. after gaining some business qualification.Unfortunately we do not know whether its a genuine Uni. degree or some diploma thing from those degree mills that have become established to help someone gain P.R. and as a P.R. one has the right to vote . However she did not feel she could identify with NZ.so when it came to issues concerning China Versus NZ , she would side with China. this brings interesting things into play such as the "CRAYFAR DEAL" if you know what i mean.
So whats she doing in NZ then? , instead of us having to make her feel NZ wants her, she should be saying to herself "what can I do to feel part of NZ."

I think this isn't only the case with chinese people tbh, indians, koreans etc all seem to identify with their homeland more than NZ (or most other adopted homelands) more. The effect with china is that it's been (consciously or subconsciously) portrayed as an "enemy" of the western world so controversy of course is inevitable.
 
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