US Navy & PLAN - South China Sea Situation News (Closed)

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Jeff Head

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If that's the case than how come China's island are still being constructed? Also what if new China's island building continues in a new location? As a result all that FON posturing did not do anything to stop it.
As far as I am concerned the status quo is:

1) China reclaiming land and improving it.
2) The US Navy exercising FON.

Short of conflict (which we will not discuss here) the US cannot stop number one, and the PRC cannot stop number 2.

All of the warnings by the PLAN of the US Navy to stop number two, and all of the requests by US spokespersons for China to stop number one, are not going to materially alter that.

But each side, from their own political perspectives have to do the above.

I expect that the back and forth will continue, and that both sides will continue doing what they are doing for a time...and then it will settle down. China is going to develop those islands and there is, at this point nothing that will stop them. That will give them greater influence in the area.

The US will continue to do its FON in the area, and that will allow them to maintain their influence, such as it is.

The difference is that what China is doing is increasing its actual influence and ability to influence conditions there. That's not going to stop. The US is simply maintaining what influence they have.
 
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Jeff Head

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I must warn you...stop the discussions speaking of war between the US and China. That is not what this thread is about and it is against SD rules.

Henceforth I will be deleting any post that goes there.

Also, stop raising non-ancillary points that are Off Topic to try and score points in debates. ie. North Korean naval activities of some time ago. That was not in the SCS. That did not involve US FON patrols or PRC reaction to them which is what this thread is about.

Those OT discussions (which ultimately will lead to OT arguments) will also be deleted.

This is not the third warning on this thread. Any more activities requiring such warnings will see the thread temporarily closed.

DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS MODERATION.


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Janiz

Senior Member
I think it's time for PLAN, US Navy and preferably JMSDF using whatever means it needs (I mean non diplomatic channels) to sit down and draw a red line. Because in such fast paced scenarios I assume that for now it's all up to the individual ship commander to decide what to do in such situations on all sides and all we need is one hothead who will make things happen. We've seen it before with JMSDF vessel being aimed by the PLAN's FCR and we all now that any situation like that could end up in the worst case scenario. So it's not hypothetical right now - it happened and it could happen again.
 

Jeff Head

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I think it's time for PLAN, US Navy and preferably JMSDF using whatever means it needs (I mean non diplomatic channels) to sit down and draw a red line. Because in such fast paced scenarios I assume that for now it's all up to the individual ship commander to decide what to do in such situations on all sides and all we need is one hothead who will make things happen. We've seen it before with JMSDF vessel being aimed by the PLAN's FCR and we all now that any situation like that could end up in the worst case scenario. So it's not hypothetical right now - it happened and it could happen again.
No., IMHO..a "Red line," implies and threatens conflict. However, if you mean that they should all sit down and continue talking...I agree.

No one wants that conflict. and there is no need for it.

Both sides are already talking behind the scenes. The recent US FON exercise shows it. They announced before hand when they were coming, where they were going, and even which ship would do it.

The PRC knew it and was prepared for it.

Both sides then announced their rhetoric...but they also both (IMHO) prepared for the exercise so as to not make any mistakes. I believe they are both already talking.

This will continue. There will be more FON exercise. There will be more announcements, press releases, and what not on both sides.

The US, short of a conflict (which neither side wants, and which we will not discuss here on SD), cannot stop the PRC from developing those islands...and they are continuing right ahead to develop hem.

The Chinese, short of the same, cannot stop FON exercises.

And despite the rhetoric and announcements and demands (on both sides) which are principally for "back home," why would they?

In developing those islands, the PRC is gaining a stronger ability to influence the SCS and gaining more and more of it. Why risk that?

The US, is maintaining its FON capability, and what influence it has. Why risk that?

The difference it that the US is "maintaining" a certain amount of influence, while the PRC is "growing" its influence.

There is nothing (again short of very drastic consequences which we will not discuss) that the US can do about China's growth there, and nothing the PRC can do about the US FON presence there.
 
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Jeff Head

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Naval Today said:
US Navy’s Chief of Naval Operations Adm. John Richardson and his Chinese counterpart, People’s Liberation Army (Navy) Commander Adm. Wu Shengli took part in a video teleconference to discuss ongoing engagements between the two navies and recent operations in the South China Sea.

The talks held on Oct. 29 were in light of the US Navy’s USS Lassen sailing within 12 nautical miles of China’s man-made island in the Spratly Islands territory, most of which is claimed by China.

The sail-by took place Oct. 27 and
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in China. As Reuters reports, Admiral Wu Shengli confirmed China’s stern stance that a minor incident could spark war if the US repeated similar actions in the future.

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on the latest call reports Richardson and Wu discussing U.S. freedom of navigation operations; the relationship between the two navies, including pending port visits and senior leader engagement; and the importance of maintaining an ongoing dialogue.

Admiral John Richardson stated that U.S. freedom of navigation operations serve to protect the rights, freedoms, and lawful uses of the sea and airspace guaranteed to all nations under international law. He further added that these operations were not a challenge to the sovereignty of land features and that United States takes no position on competing sovereignty claims to land features in the South China Sea.

This is very good and indicative that both sides are ensuiring that no one makes a foolish mistake.
 

Blitzo

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This write up posted on the diplomat does a good job of showing just how carefully worded the Chinese FM was in its remarks about the USN FONOP, as I described a few pages back. They're clearly trying to keep all their bases covered.

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How China Maintains Strategic Ambiguity in the South China Sea

By
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October 29, 2015

China’s official government reactions to the recent U.S. Navy “freedom of navigation” (FON) operation within 12 nautical miles (nm) of a Chinese-occupied constructed island in the South China Sea are a multilingual puzzle. A careful examination of Chinese-language versions of Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Defense Ministry statements, however, reveals extreme subtlety in wording and an apparently coordinated effort to maintain strategic ambiguity on key questions about China’s position.

Do Chinese officials believe the U.S. Navy violated Chinese sovereignty? Unclear. Do they claim maritime rights surrounding constructed islands that go farther than the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) provides? Not explicitly. Will they specify exactly why the U.S. action is described as illegal? Not quite—but the door just cracked open.

Chinese official statements have been almost flawless in keeping these questions unanswered, with one exception discussed below. Doing so required a change in language between earlier statements warning against FON operations and this week’s protests following the event itself. In May, Ministry of Foreign Affairs Spokesperson Hua Chunying
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the United States against “violation (qīnfàn) of China’s sovereignty and threat (wēihài) to China’s national security.” Earlier this month, Hua
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“infringement (qīnfàn) of China’s territorial sea (lǐnghǎi) and airspace (lǐngkōng).”

The use of the legally specific term “territorial sea” and the word qīnfàn (translated as “violation” or “infringement”—and a term used in such contexts as Japan’s
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of the Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands) set the Chinese government up for a test. In general, only features that, before any construction, sat above water at high tide can produce a 12 nm territorial sea under UNCLOS. If the U.S. Navy entered within 12 nm of a constructed island (
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for former low-tide elevations or former submerged features), and the Chinese government spoke of “territorial sea” or complained of qīnfàn of sovereignty, China would be making an implicit claim not well supported by UNCLOS.

In fact, the U.S. mission was evidently designed to administer that very test by entering within 12 nm of the installation built atop Subi Reef, which is widely recognized as having originally been above water only at low tide. Would Chinese officials take the bait?

The Chinese government’s
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came from Ministry of Foreign Affairs Spokesperson Lu Kang. Lu asserted that the U.S. ship had “illegally entered waters near” features in the South China Sea. For “waters near” he did not use the Chinese term for territorial sea, but instead referred to línjìn hǎiyù, literally “nearby” or “neighboring” waters. Lu said the U.S. activity “threatened (wēixié) China’s sovereignty and security interests,” but he did not say those interests were violated or infringed. Later in the statement, Lu asserted Chinese sovereignty over the “Nansha Islands and their adjacent waters (fùjìn hǎiyù),” pointedly using a different Chinese term from the one the U.S. was said to have entered.

Finally, modifying Hua’s earlier warning against using FON as an excuse to “violate” sovereignty, Lu said China opposes using FON as an excuse to “harm (sǔnhài)… China’s sovereignty and security interests.” Lu finally urged the United States to refrain from actions “detrimental to (wēixié) China’s sovereignty and security interests,” returning to the verb used to describe what Lu had accused the U.S. Navy of doing that day.

In this statement, Lu avoids taking an explicit or implied position on: whether Subi Reef can produce a 12 nm territorial sea, whether the U.S. Navy violated Chinese sovereignty, what specific maritime areas China claims sovereignty over, and what if any escalation thresholds may exist in any future encounters. Quite a feat—and one repeated by Vice Foreign Minister Zhang Yesui, according to
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of his meeting with U.S. Ambassador Max Baucus.

But we’re not done. Around the same time,
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made his own statement. Yang also avoided the term “territorial sea” (lǐnghǎi) throughout, instead using “offshore waters” (jìnàn shǔiyù) and “adjacent waters” (fùjìn hǎiyù). Yang avoided calling the U.S. action illegal, but called it an abuse (lànyòng) of freedoms of navigation provided for in international law. Yang declared the U.S. action a serious threat (yánzhòng wēixié) to China’s national security (though not necessarily to sovereignty), and he urged the United States to respect China’s concerns about sovereignty and national security.

By avoiding the term “territorial sea” and any explicit statement about the basis for calling the U.S. action illegal, officials for the most part maintained China’s carefully cultivated ambiguity about the nature of Chinese claims in the South China Sea. By doing so, they deny U.S. planners one of their most likely goals in conducting FON operations, to force reluctant Chinese officials to put forth claims that are unlikely to find support in international law.

Some ambiguity, however, has been surrendered. On October 28, Lu
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, “What the U.S. has done violates (wéifǎn) the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea as well as relevant domestic law of China.” If future statements confirm a Chinese view that the U.S. action violated UNCLOS, the U.S. government will have very legitimate questions. What kind of jurisdiction does China’s government claim in which waters? Does China assert a territorial sea surrounding Subi Reef? If so, how did the ship violate the rules of innocent passage, as set out in UNCLOS? Alternately, does China assert an exclusive economic zone (EEZ) in the South China Sea? If so, what are its boundaries, and what does China allege the U.S. ship did to violate the permissive UNCLOS regime on military activities in EEZs?

International law evolves through precedent and state practice, and there are legitimate scholarly and diplomatic disagreements on how to apply UNCLOS. For now, however, careful Chinese officials have denied opponents specific grounds on which to argue.

Graham Webster (
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) is a researcher, lecturer, and senior fellow of The China Center at Yale Law School. Sign up for his free e-mail brief,
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.
 

Brumby

Major
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This is very good and indicative that both sides are ensuiring that no one makes a foolish mistake.
Jeff,
Whilst I agree that both sides are carefully ensuring that there are no unnecessary accidents developing, there is one statement made by the Chinese which I consider disturbing and that is "Admiral Wu Shengli confirmed China’s stern stance that a minor incident could spark war if the US repeated similar actions in the future." There are two ways to read into such statement. The first one is at face value in that minor incidents in tense situation can easily get out of control that neither party wants. The alternative is a veil warning that China is willing to take an escalatory path and implicit in it (minor incidents are simply a pretext) should the US attempt another FON.
 

Brumby

Major
Some ambiguity, however, has been surrendered. On October 28, Lu
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, “What the U.S. has done violates (wéifǎn) the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea as well as relevant domestic law of China.” If future statements confirm a Chinese view that the U.S. action violated UNCLOS, the U.S. government will have very legitimate questions. What kind of jurisdiction does China’s government claim in which waters? Does China assert a territorial sea surrounding Subi Reef? If so, how did the ship violate the rules of innocent passage, as set out in UNCLOS? Alternately, does China assert an exclusive economic zone (EEZ) in the South China Sea? If so, what are its boundaries, and what does China allege the U.S. ship did to violate the permissive UNCLOS regime on military activities in EEZs?

International law evolves through precedent and state practice, and there are legitimate scholarly and diplomatic disagreements on how to apply UNCLOS. For now, however, careful Chinese officials have denied opponents specific grounds on which to argue.
The ambiguity approach is a holding pattern in my view and will not be sustainable for too long given developments on the ground and the Philippines case before the tribunal. Once the determination is made by the tribunal and the clarity that is likely to come forth regarding certain interpretations within UNCLOS, it will clear some of the smoke screen that China has created and limit its path going forward.
 

Blitzo

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Jeff,
Whilst I agree that both sides are carefully ensuring that there are no unnecessary accidents developing, there is one statement made by the Chinese which I consider disturbing and that is "Admiral Wu Shengli confirmed China’s stern stance that a minor incident could spark war if the US repeated similar actions in the future." There are two ways to read into such statement. The first one is at face value in that minor incidents in tense situation can easily get out of control that neither party wants. The alternative is a veil warning that China is willing to take an escalatory path and implicit in it (minor incidents are simply a pretext) should the US attempt another FON.

I see the statement as a bit of a combination of your two views -- that is if these incidents continue, China may seek to respond in a more proactive manner/aka escalate, and while it won't mean actually doing anything that will start a war, it will raise the chances of a minor incident occurring that can possibly lead to war.

It's a veiled warning in the sense that China is willing to escalate its responses, but not a veiled warning in the sense that China is seeking war, if that makes sense. In other words, the possibility of "minor incidents" is a consequence, rather than a pretext.



The ambiguity approach is a holding pattern in my view and will not be sustainable for too long given developments on the ground and the Philippines case before the tribunal. Once the determination is made by the tribunal and the clarity that is likely to come forth regarding certain interpretations within UNCLOS, it will clear some of the smoke screen that China has created and limit its path going forward.

I think there will be more pressure for China to clarify its claims especially with the court case, but whether China actually caves in is another matter.

Personally I'm pretty interested in knowing just what their overall position on the SCS is as much as anyone.
 

Brumby

Major
I see the statement as a bit of a combination of your two views -- that is if these incidents continue, China may seek to respond in a more proactive manner/aka escalate, and while it won't mean actually doing anything that will start a war, it will raise the chances of a minor incident occurring that can possibly lead to war.

It's a veiled warning in the sense that China is willing to escalate its responses, but not a veiled warning in the sense that China is seeking war, if that makes sense. In other words, the possibility of "minor incidents" is a consequence, rather than a pretext.
You have a better read of Chinese statements and meaning than I do and I will defer to your understanding for the moment.

I think there will be more pressure for China to clarify its claims especially with the court case, but whether China actually caves in is another matter.

Personally I'm pretty interested in knowing just what their overall position on the SCS is as much as anyone.
I am somewhat resigned to the notion that China is firmed on its strategic policy towards the SCS and short of a war will not change that equation. The idea of caving is too strong a term in my view but given how assertive China had been in the past two years with its activities in the SCS, we are starting to see more tangibly the reaction and push back from the other side.

My read is that China knows its position is weak on international law but by pursuing ambiguity it intends to gain as much ground as possible before the other side can react in a firm and coherent manner. Once the smoke screen is cleared, it will limit its options from which then China consolidate its gains and recalibrate its next path albeit in a more restricted sense.
 
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