100% they're going to a POW camp, likely on Russian territory. I doubt they'll be released until they've finished rebuilding Mariupol in 5 years.
Ukrainian War Developments
- Thread starter james smith esq
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I mean where else are they gonna go? Not like there is anywhere else for them to choose.
Good idea. POWs should be used for rebuilding Eastern Ukraine.
14hr work per day, 7 days a week, should be enough
The Ukrainian government has established a Russian partisan volunteer battalion known as the “Freedom of Russia” legion for its armed forces; similar to volunteer Chechen and Belarusian brigades established by the Ukrainian government.
It was allegedly established after a company’s worth of Russian soldiers had surrendered and later agreed to voluntarily fight for the Ukrainian cause.
The brigade has reportedly received over a hundred members; with their uniforms displaying a blue and white tri-band sleeve insignia which has been used in the Russian Federation as sign of opposition to the current war in the Ukraine.
It was allegedly established after a company’s worth of Russian soldiers had surrendered and later agreed to voluntarily fight for the Ukrainian cause.
The brigade has reportedly received over a hundred members; with their uniforms displaying a blue and white tri-band sleeve insignia which has been used in the Russian Federation as sign of opposition to the current war in the Ukraine.
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I was interested to hear this morning that the Russians had launched a precision strike against an out of Town Main Road Bridge that crossed a major Railway line all which was supplying towards the Izzum bridghead
This strike collapsed the Bridge onto the Railway line blocking both and doing so without causing any (as far as I am aware) Civilian Casualties. Yes somehow on the same day only fifty miles away, they needed to wheel out an obsolete badly guided missile to strike the center of a major occupied city in the DPR...............
This strike collapsed the Bridge onto the Railway line blocking both and doing so without causing any (as far as I am aware) Civilian Casualties. Yes somehow on the same day only fifty miles away, they needed to wheel out an obsolete badly guided missile to strike the center of a major occupied city in the DPR...............
"Russian Defense Ministry: results of radio intercepts in Mariupol show that there are a significant number of foreign mercenaries in the occupied areas of the city"
Yet, according to the same source 5P85C is the launcher vehicle, part of C-300PS:
"Self-propelled launchers 5P85С and 5П85Д from the composition of the C-300PS air defense system"
Source:
I looked up a Jane's publication on Land-Based Air Defence:
In the mid-1980s design work was completed on a mobile version of the system, known by the US/NATO designation SA-10b 'Grumble' Mod 1 (Soviet designation S-300PMU). In this version the weapon is mounted, carried and vertically launched from a dedicated four-round capacity ... In 1991 it was revealed that Czechoslovakia was operating several SA-10b batteries.
Therefore, SA-10b is equal to S-300 PMU. Elsewhere, I've seen it described as S-300 PS. Furthermore, Jane's claimed that the maximum range of the missiles is at least 90km.
You may have a point regarding the existence of a regional identity, but that won't convince anyone opposing it, nor have it any bearing on how people think and act.
If we map Ukraine to Taiwan, you would be arguing the existence of the identity of Taiwan whatever that identity means. But to most mainland Chinese, Taiwan as an identity does not mean anything, pretty much like what Russians see Ukraine. If we have to, mainland Chinese will be as "brutal" in dealing with Taiwan as Russians in dealing with Ukraine. And Chinese won't say anything complicated and less blunt about Taiwan. Just remind you of a well-known saying supposedly by Chinese defence minister "we don't want to take back Taiwan militarily, but if forced to we would rather take back a scorched island." "宁可 台 湾 不长草！也要 解 放 台 湾 岛".
I don't intend to bring in off-topic matters in the thread, but I think it worth to remind you to put yourself in the shoes of mainland Chinese and Russians. Failing to do so, it would be Chicken talking to the duck, pointless.
Russian propaganda likely will compare this 'brigade' to the Vlasovites (not the mineral), Русская освободительная армия.
"The army was led by , a general who had defected, and members of the army are often referred
to as Vlasovtsy (Власовцы)".
I thought it might be worthwhile to see how the ICTY assessed the NATO bombing of a passanger train in Yugoslavia, during operation Allied Force.
On 12 April 1999, a NATO aircraft launched two laser guided bombs at the Leskovac railway bridge over the Grdelica gorge and Juzna Morava river, in eastern Serbia. A 5-carriage passenger train, travelling from Belgrade to Ristovac on the Macedonian border, was crossing the bridge at the time, and was struck by both missiles. The various reports made of this incident concur that the incident occurred at about 11.40 a.m. At least ten people were killed in this incident and at least 15 individuals were injured. The designated target was the railway bridge, which was claimed to be part of a resupply route being used for Serb forces in Kosovo. After launching the first bomb, the person controlling the weapon, at the last instant before impact, sighted movement on the bridge. The controller was unable to dump the bomb at that stage and it hit the train, the impact of the bomb cutting the second of the passenger coaches in half. Realizing the bridge was still intact, the controller picked a second aim point on the bridge at the opposite end from where the train had come and launched the second bomb. In the meantime the train had slid forward as a result of the original impact and parts of the train were also hit by the second bomb.
A very creative "explanation" was provided by General Wesley Clark, NATO’s Supreme Allied Commander for Europe and is here reprinted in full:
"[T]his was a case where a pilot was assigned to strike a railroad bridge that is part of the integrated communications supply network in Serbia. He launched his missile from his aircraft that was many miles away, he was not able to put his eyes on the bridge, it was a remotely directed attack. And as he stared intently at the desired target point on the bridge, and I talked to the team at Aviano who was directly engaged in this operation, as the pilot stared intently at the desired aim point on the bridge and worked it, and worked it and worked it, and all of a sudden at the very last instant with less than a second to go he caught a flash of movement that came into the screen and it was the train coming in.
Unfortunately he couldn’t dump the bomb at that point, it was locked, it was going into the target and it was an unfortunate incident which he, and the crew, and all of us very much regret. We certainly don’t want to do collateral damage.
The mission was to take out the bridge. He realised when it had happened that he had not hit the bridge, but what he had hit was the train. He had another aim point on the bridge, it was a relatively long bridge and he believed he still had to accomplish his mission, the pilot circled back around. He put his aim point on the other end of the bridge from where the train had come, by the time the bomb got close to the bridge it was covered with smoke and clouds and at the last minute again in an uncanny accident, the train had slid forward from the original impact and parts of the train had moved across the bridge, and so that by striking the other end of the bridge he actually caused additional damage to the train." (Press Conference, NATO HQ, Brussels, 13 April).
The pilot in the aircraft is looking at about a 5-inch screen, he is seeing about this much and in here you can see this is the railroad bridge which is a much better view than he actually had, you can see the tracks running this way.
Look very intently at the aim point, concentrate right there and you can see how, if you were focused right on your job as a pilot, suddenly that train appeared. It was really unfortunate.
Here, he came back around to try to strike a different point on the bridge because he was trying to do a job to take the bridge down. Look at this aim point – you can see smoke and other obscuration there – he couldn’t tell what this was exactly.
Focus intently right at the centre of the cross. He is bringing these two crosses together and suddenly he recognises at the very last instant that the train that was struck here has moved on across the bridge and so the engine apparently was struck by the second bomb." (Press Conference, NATO HQ, Brussels, 13 April).
According to this, if your weapon systems do not indicate civilian presence or there is smoke and other obscuration, and you "accidentally" hit civilians, it's not a war crime as long as the target was a justified military objective. Even if you double strike it !? Also, according to the photo above I would not agree with Gen Clarke that "it was a relatively long bridge".
On 12 April 1999, a NATO aircraft launched two laser guided bombs at the Leskovac railway bridge over the Grdelica gorge and Juzna Morava river, in eastern Serbia. A 5-carriage passenger train, travelling from Belgrade to Ristovac on the Macedonian border, was crossing the bridge at the time, and was struck by both missiles. The various reports made of this incident concur that the incident occurred at about 11.40 a.m. At least ten people were killed in this incident and at least 15 individuals were injured. The designated target was the railway bridge, which was claimed to be part of a resupply route being used for Serb forces in Kosovo. After launching the first bomb, the person controlling the weapon, at the last instant before impact, sighted movement on the bridge. The controller was unable to dump the bomb at that stage and it hit the train, the impact of the bomb cutting the second of the passenger coaches in half. Realizing the bridge was still intact, the controller picked a second aim point on the bridge at the opposite end from where the train had come and launched the second bomb. In the meantime the train had slid forward as a result of the original impact and parts of the train were also hit by the second bomb.
A very creative "explanation" was provided by General Wesley Clark, NATO’s Supreme Allied Commander for Europe and is here reprinted in full:
"[T]his was a case where a pilot was assigned to strike a railroad bridge that is part of the integrated communications supply network in Serbia. He launched his missile from his aircraft that was many miles away, he was not able to put his eyes on the bridge, it was a remotely directed attack. And as he stared intently at the desired target point on the bridge, and I talked to the team at Aviano who was directly engaged in this operation, as the pilot stared intently at the desired aim point on the bridge and worked it, and worked it and worked it, and all of a sudden at the very last instant with less than a second to go he caught a flash of movement that came into the screen and it was the train coming in.
Unfortunately he couldn’t dump the bomb at that point, it was locked, it was going into the target and it was an unfortunate incident which he, and the crew, and all of us very much regret. We certainly don’t want to do collateral damage.
The mission was to take out the bridge. He realised when it had happened that he had not hit the bridge, but what he had hit was the train. He had another aim point on the bridge, it was a relatively long bridge and he believed he still had to accomplish his mission, the pilot circled back around. He put his aim point on the other end of the bridge from where the train had come, by the time the bomb got close to the bridge it was covered with smoke and clouds and at the last minute again in an uncanny accident, the train had slid forward from the original impact and parts of the train had moved across the bridge, and so that by striking the other end of the bridge he actually caused additional damage to the train." (Press Conference, NATO HQ, Brussels, 13 April).
The pilot in the aircraft is looking at about a 5-inch screen, he is seeing about this much and in here you can see this is the railroad bridge which is a much better view than he actually had, you can see the tracks running this way.
Look very intently at the aim point, concentrate right there and you can see how, if you were focused right on your job as a pilot, suddenly that train appeared. It was really unfortunate.
Here, he came back around to try to strike a different point on the bridge because he was trying to do a job to take the bridge down. Look at this aim point – you can see smoke and other obscuration there – he couldn’t tell what this was exactly.
Focus intently right at the centre of the cross. He is bringing these two crosses together and suddenly he recognises at the very last instant that the train that was struck here has moved on across the bridge and so the engine apparently was struck by the second bomb." (Press Conference, NATO HQ, Brussels, 13 April).
According to this, if your weapon systems do not indicate civilian presence or there is smoke and other obscuration, and you "accidentally" hit civilians, it's not a war crime as long as the target was a justified military objective. Even if you double strike it !? Also, according to the photo above I would not agree with Gen Clarke that "it was a relatively long bridge".
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