Ukrainian War Developments

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meckhardt98

Junior Member
Registered Member
Again 10 days ? Cold weather doesn't explain why the bodies look like they are less then a day old. Neither why they were left in the middle of the road for so long. Without also somehow not being driven over. Never mind why I took the Ukrainians so long to report them. Or the fact they had white ribbons.

Bodies with white arm bands are from Ukrainian forces willfully mopping up any Russian corroborators; this is known and can be used to explain these so called “fresh” bodies, I have stated this fact several times.

There are a plethora of older bodies that have been found lying around; not to mention the ones found buried in trenches, I’m sure if you look hard enough you can find these images for yourself. Cold weather, like I said greatly affects the rate of decomposition in corpses and certainly helps and cannot be discredited.

On top of that nobody is going to
A. Intentionally run over a dead body; not only would it be grossly immoral it also posses the risk of damaging the vehicle in question
B. Nobody is going to attempt to move a dead body out of the way if they don’t have to, there are numerous reasons, many of which I’d assume are obvious, as to why you would not want to do that

Most of the Bucha/Irpen region had been under Russian control; on-top of that lots of communications infrastructure has gone down in the area, given that satellite uplinks have not been available to civilians in that area; again they’re under Russian occupation and in active conflict; then it is a given they aren’t going to be able to immediately hop on Twitter and tweet about it in the moment. So it is only logical that once Ukrainian forces are able to recapture the Bucha/Irpen region that they would be able to report on it.

I also remember reading something about alleged executions in Bucha weeks ago but I could be mistaken.
 

Atomicfrog

Major
Registered Member
Didn't the US kill like 20% of North Korea's population?

Then they whine when US soldiers are depicted as savages in North Korean art.
They stopped the bombing campaign in North Korea because there was nothing left to bomb. Every above ground structures where destroyed. Mariupol is devastated but we still see parts of the city mostly intact and it was a fight with fanatics having a price on their heads who used civilians building for bunker.
 
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Abominable

Major
Registered Member
Satellite imaging isn’t going to lie; if you’re so doubtful you can fly there yourself or purchase an up to date satellite service yourself.

The average temperature in the Bucha/Irpen region has been in the low thirties; slowing down the effects decomposition, additionally what videos we have seen have been incredibly grainy and do not provide a high level of detail that you can ascertain, this is one of the reasons why people were falsely accusing the initial videos as fake due to poor quality and the presence of water and light reflection on the windows of Ukrainian vehicles from which the videos were filmed, which said “debunks” have been disproven as desperate non-sense.

It’s incriminating that trenches have been dug out for over a week now while the region had been under Russian occupation which would seem to credit eye-witness testimonies and Ukrainian evidence.

I’ll say once again that there are numerous casualties that are separate from the massacre in Bucha and Irpen that is being falsely reported as a war crimes perpetrated by Russian Forces when in fact they are either the byproduct of crossfire or Ukrainian war crimes; however I’ll maintain that the Russians too are most likely guilty of executing civilians, or at the very least indiscriminately shelling the area and attempting to clean up the mess, either way more and more evidence is coming out to support the notion of war crimes.
Explain why there's such strong attention on the "war crimes" of Bucha but zero outrage with what happened in Mariupol which is backed up with testimony of hundreds of civilians who've fled Mariupol, let alone the bodies with signs of torture. Both were against Ukrainian civilians.

A dead civilian alone isn't a sign of a war crime. They could be insurgents, taking up Ukraine's call to use Molotovs against tanks, or they could have been killed by Ukrainian bombardment of Russian positions. Or they could have been suspected "Russian saboteurs" who've been killed by Ukrainians. This whole war is a mess and it's hard to tell who's telling the truth.
 

Atomicfrog

Major
Registered Member
Explain why there's such strong attention on the "war crimes" of Bucha but zero outrage with what happened in Mariupol which is backed up with testimony of hundreds of civilians who've fled Mariupol, let alone the bodies with signs of torture. Both were against Ukrainian civilians.

A dead civilian alone isn't a sign of a war crime. They could be insurgents, taking up Ukraine's call to use Molotovs against tanks, or they could have been killed by Ukrainian bombardment of Russian positions. Or they could have been suspected "Russian saboteurs" who've been killed by Ukrainians. This whole war is a mess and it's hard to tell who's telling the truth.
In any case, pilling up bodies in mass graves is a way to curtein all the problems with rotting corpses all over the place being eaten by cats and dogs spreading sickness and so on...
 

Lapin

Junior Member
Registered Member
i think that is merely a standard story designed to highlight the conventional narrative that Hitler was a overreaching strategic incompetent. Hitler was often a reaching strategic incompetent, but on this Occassion he was not nearly as incompetent as narrative made him out to be, and Guderian certainly had a narrow field commander’s mind and most certainly was clueless about Germany’s overall predicament as opposed to the operational challenges on the eastern front.

Basically, 1943 was likely the last opportunity Germany has to dictate the course of a campaign season in the east. 1944 will likely see Anglo-american invasion of France, Italy and possibly Norway. Germany’s relative material strength vs the USSR would in any case have declined sharply even without accounting for the diversions to address these very potent new challenges to Germany’s land strength. There was no way Germany would have the strength to launch a major strategic offensive in the east after 1943. In 1943 Germany had one last chance to decisively improve her defensive position and depth to face what would likely be at least 2-3 upcoming years of pure defensive operation on the east against a now very experienced and much stronger red army

Alternatives to zitedelle for Germany in 1943 all depends on the German army at the operational level holding the same advantage over the Soviet army derived from the tightness of their OODC decision loop. They would need to keep the same advantage throughout 1943 that they had held in 1942 and the beginning of 1943. Hitler could see the Soviets learn from their mistakes and are tightening up their own OODC loop. So it would be even more risky to give up large territories to the Soviets essentially for free, and then count on the Soviets making the same mistakes and exhibit the same slow reactions to German maneuvers as during the follow up of Stalingrad to gain them back.

So prestige was not the driving force for hitler’s decision to commit to the Kursk battle. The fact that Germany was back against a wall and out of other real options was.

I have noticed that you have a record of making questionable (at best) comments (which I may lack time to address) on
military history in addition to underrating my knowledge (which does not come from popular books or documentaries).

I concur that, after the war, many German generals liked to blame Hitler alone for all the misfortunes of war, which was unfair.
Indeed, sometimes Hitler's judgement was better than the "experts'". For instance, Hitler was right in June 1940 to order that
the Panzerkampfwagen III be armed with the 50 mm / L60 gun, but his order was ignored until early 1941 by 'experts' who
thought that the 50 mm / L42 gun (with lower muzzle velocity) was adequate.

I find it surprising that any historically knowledgeable person now believes the Operation Citadel was Germany's best or
even only strategic option in the summer of 1943.

"Guderian certainly had a narrow field commander’s mind."

In fact, Guderian last held a field command (2nd Panzer Army) in December 1941, when Hitler dismissed him.
In 1943, Guderian became the Inspector General of Armored Troops, assigned the mission of reconstructing the Panzerwaffe.
(In early 1943 (after the Battle of Stalingrad), the Wehrmacht reportedly had fewer than 500 operational tanks on the Ostfront.)
After his appointment, Guderian (understandably) liked to start on a note of optimism (whether or not he privately believed it)
in order to reassure others (particularly Hitler) that he was the right man for the task. So Guderian's hopeful statement that
the Wehrmacht should prepare to resume offensive campaigns in 1944 should not be taken too literally.

Manstein also apparently favored remaining on the strategic defensive, hoping to entice the RKKA into overextending itself
through offensives and striking back with 'backhand blows' (as in the counteroffensive that took Kharkov in February 1943).
Manstein's hope was that if the RKKA suffered enough losses through German 'backhand blows', it could become weakened
enough that Stalin would consider a negotiated settlement. Did Manstein also have a "narrow field commander's mind"?

Friedrich von Mellenthin made the comment that the great German General Staff could think of nothing better to do with
its Panzer divisions than to hurl them in a frontal assault against the strongest field defenses (Kursk salient) in the world.

According to recent historical scholarship, the Battle of Kursk was less of a 'decisive defeat' for Germany than many earlier
writers (such as Martin Caidin in his ignorant _The Tigers Are Burning_) claimed. Indeed, the Germans may well have won
a tactical victory by many measures. But Guderian believed that the Wehrmacht's almost irreplaceable armored reserve
should not be committed to battle prematurely, not until a potential victory would result in decisive strategic consequences.

By the way, even as the RKKA was advancing into Poland in 1944 and the Wehrmacht was long past its prime, Guderian
remained a respected, if not almost feared, adversary for the Soviet generals. Even the suspicion that Hitler might give
Guderian a free hand to command Panzer forces in a counterattack might well have given some pause to the RKKA.
Indeed, in a battle that has been long covered up, the Germans (though outnumbered perhaps 3 to 1 in AFV) evidently
successfully counterattacked and cut off most of a Soviet tank army. This stinging defeat may have contributed (in
addition to logistical difficulties and political considerations) to the RKKA slowing down its advance westward.
 

meckhardt98

Junior Member
Registered Member
Explain why there's such strong attention on the "war crimes" of Bucha but zero outrage with what happened in Mariupol which is backed up with testimony of hundreds of civilians who've fled Mariupol, let alone the bodies with signs of torture. Both were against Ukrainian civilians.

A dead civilian alone isn't a sign of a war crime. They could be insurgents, taking up Ukraine's call to use Molotovs against tanks, or they could have been killed by Ukrainian bombardment of Russian positions. Or they could have been suspected "Russian saboteurs" who've been killed by Ukrainians. This whole war is a mess and it's hard to tell who's telling the truth.

The willful killing of a civilian is considered a war crime by international law.

I agree that there isn’t enough coverage on war crimes committed by the Ukrainians and Azov Battalion; however from the point of western media it won’t be reported on similarly to how war crimes committed by Russian Forces; which aren’t isolated in Bucha/Irpen; won’t be reported in Russian media.

The thing that is baffling is that some people cannot accept the fact that Russian forces have committed numerous war crimes yet are the first to detest Ukrainian ones.

Many times are war crimes are committed in war; and more often then not they are committed on localized scales and aren’t wide spread policy, I.E. the Russian Ministry of Defense is not ordering the execution of civilians, rather it’s at the discretion of local soldiers who choose to make these decisions, which like I said happen in times of war.

Both sides need to be held accountable for their actions, there is nothing worse than to take the lives of non-combatants; civilians; of which are just trying to live their lives in the worst of situations.
 

Terrowyn

New Member
Registered Member
Satilite imaging shows bodies in Bucha; lain across the same street and in the same position as the video; as early as 19MAR22.

Additional satellite imaging shows the presence of trenches prior to the Russian withdrawal from the area; which were allegedly discovered to contain mass graves.
First image. Looks sus, though it could also be a trench. I can't really call it concrete evidence of a mass grave without more evidence to back it up.

Second image. Do you have a link to the video that matches this image? There is so much footage out there now and I don't have time to look for it, the image also isn't very good unfortunately.

Third image. I'll be honest, I've looked at this for a good few minutes and am not sure what I'm meant to be looking at? I guess it is the extent of the damage on the building to the right, it certainly looks battered.

Fourth image. I can't actually make out from the image alone if that is a body. I tried going to the Instagram page that is on the image but it seems he deleted the post for this specific media.

Not trying to discredit your post, I simply expect more substance.
 

meckhardt98

Junior Member
Registered Member
First image. Looks sus, though it could also be a trench. I can't really call it concrete evidence of a mass grave without more evidence to back it up.

Second image. Do you have a link to the video that matches this image? There is so much footage out there now and I don't have time to look for it, the image also isn't very good unfortunately.

Third image. I'll be honest, I've looked at this for a good few minutes and am not sure what I'm meant to be looking at? I guess it is the extent of the damage on the building to the right, it certainly looks battered.

Fourth image. I can't actually make out from the image alone if that is a body. I tried going to the Instagram page that is on the image but it seems he deleted the post for this specific media.

Not trying to discredit your post, I simply expect more substance.

The trench at the church has been shown numerous times at ground level filled with corpses; there are strict rules in place in regards to showing such images however you can find them relatively easy.

As for the other videos they too can be found relatively easy.

The panoramic photo is simply there to highlight the extent of damage(s) as-well as show the presence of what may be corpses strewn along the streets.

I do agree that the images are a bit grainy and that’s due to the relative quality of available commercial satellite imaging; however for the most part validate claims made by Ukrainian forces.
 

Richard Santos

Captain
Registered Member
I have noticed that you have a record of making questionable (at best) comments (which I may lack time to address) on
military history in addition to underrating my knowledge (which does not come from popular books or documentaries).

I concur that, after the war, many German generals liked to blame Hitler alone for all the misfortunes of war, which was unfair.
Indeed, sometimes Hitler's judgement was better than the "experts'". For instance, Hitler was right in June 1940 to order that
the Panzerkampfwagen III be armed with the 50 mm / L60 gun, but his order was ignored until early 1941 by 'experts' who
thought that the 50 mm / L42 gun (with lower muzzle velocity) was adequate.

I find it surprising that any historically knowledgeable person now believes the Operation Citadel was Germany's best or
even only strategic option in the summer of 1943.

"Guderian certainly had a narrow field commander’s mind."

In fact, Guderian last held a field command (2nd Panzer Army) in December 1941, when Hitler dismissed him.
In 1943, Guderian became the Inspector General of Armored Troops, assigned the mission of reconstructing the Panzerwaffe.
(In early 1943 (after the Battle of Stalingrad), the Wehrmacht reportedly had fewer than 500 operational tanks on the Ostfront.)
After his appointment, Guderian (understandably) liked to start on a note of optimism (whether or not he privately believed it)
in order to reassure others (particularly Hitler) that he was the right man for the task. So Guderian's hopeful statement that
the Wehrmacht should prepare to resume offensive campaigns in 1944 should not be taken too literally.

Manstein also apparently favored remaining on the strategic defensive, hoping to entice the RKKA into overextending itself
through offensives and striking back with 'backhand blows' (as in the counteroffensive that took Kharkov in February 1943).
Manstein's hope was that if the RKKA suffered enough losses through German 'backhand blows', it could become weakened
enough that Stalin would consider a negotiated settlement. Did Manstein also have a "narrow field commander's mind"?

Friedrich von Mellenthin made the comment that the great German General Staff could think of nothing better to do with
its Panzer divisions than to hurl them in a frontal assault against the strongest field defenses (Kursk salient) in the world.

According to recent historical scholarship, the Battle of Kursk was less of a 'decisive defeat' for Germany than many earlier
writers (such as Martin Caidin in his ignorant _The Tigers Are Burning_) claimed. Indeed, the Germans may well have won
a tactical victory by many measures. But Guderian believed that the Wehrmacht's almost irreplaceable armored reserve
should not be committed to battle prematurely, not until a potential victory would result in decisive strategic consequences.

By the way, even as the RKKA was advancing into Poland in 1944 and the Wehrmacht was long past its prime, Guderian
remained a respected, if not almost feared, adversary for the Soviet generals. Even the suspicion that Hitler might give
Guderian a free hand to command Panzer forces in a counterattack might well have given some pause to the RKKA.
Indeed, in a battle that has been long covered up, the Germans (though outnumbered perhaps 3 to 1 in AFV) evidently
successfully counterattacked and cut off most of a Soviet tank army. This stinging defeat may have contributed (in
addition to logistical difficulties and political considerations) to the RKKA slowing down its advance westward.


I see your primary counter to what said was to poison the well and then make largely unsupported allegations of your own authority, and then cite some points none of which directly contradict anything that I said.
 
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