Ukrainian War Developments

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Abominable

Major
Registered Member
And Ukraine isn't even a real country. It's a political concept, like North and South Vietnam. Maybe they speak Russian with a strong accent but it's practically the same language.

Once Russia takes it back people won't be calling themselves Ukrainians any more than you don't hear people nowadays calling themselves South Vietnamese or east German.
 

LawLeadsToPeace

Senior Member
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Registered Member
Guys. This thread is about the Ukranian Conflict,
NOT Taiwan, Austria, Hungary, ethics, or personal attacks. If you have nothing polite to say or contribute, then don't do it. Go on Reddit or Twitter for that crap.
 
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FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Amazing! I did not expect such an absurd rationalization.

First of all, you act as if Ukraine were not a sovereign country, but even prewar Russia recognized its independence.
How is Ukraine allegedly under 'illegal enemy occupation'? I think that it's true (though Western media prefer not
to concede it) that Ukraine's elected government was overthrown in an unconstitutional coup d'état in 2014.
But Ukraine's government now seems to have the support of most Ukrainians.

"The regime must be removed, and the people reeducated."

'Reeducated' like in China's Cultural Revolution? I met some of its victims, patriotic Chinese intellectuals.
If that's the fate that you envisage for Taiwan, it will only encourage its people to resist to the bitter end.
Taiwan is off topic here but it applies to Ukraine too:

A losing side must understand that merely being defeated is not the worst thing that can happen and defeat can take many forms.

In some cases, defeat just means changing your flag and governing ideology, but otherwise life goes on as normal, more or less, under new management. That's relatively common in cases where resistance was not too stiff and the conqueror was not too ideologically motivated.

See: Baltics after WW2. Sure they got annexed by USSR but they were then just as Soviet as Russians were, had more or less the same rights as Russians, and mostly, just got a change in management.

Fighting to the bitter end, war criming, etc. leads to a very different type of defeat. That would be the fate of Nazi Germany. Note that even other fascist powers that were defeated by the Soviets such as Hungary and Romania were not treated the way Germany was.

Militarily useless but cruel actions are very bad not only for the victims but for the perpetrators, if they lose. Meanwhile they contribute nothing to the win.
 

Abominable

Major
Registered Member
Amazing! I did not expect such an absurd rationalization.

First of all, you act as if Ukraine were not a sovereign country, but even prewar Russia recognized its independence.
How is Ukraine allegedly under 'illegal enemy occupation'? I think that it's true (though Western media prefer not
to concede it) that Ukraine's elected government was overthrown in an unconstitutional coup d'état in 2014.
But Ukraine's government now seems to have the support of most Ukrainians

"The regime must be removed, and the people reeducated."

'Reeducated' like in China's Cultural Revolution? I met some of its victims, patriotic Chinese intellectuals.
If that's the fate that you envisage for Taiwan, it will only encourage its people to resist to the bitter end.
If you think the Ukraine coup in 2014 was illegal, I don't understand why you'd think that was absurd. If a regime is illegal, all subsequent actions it performs are illegal. It needs to be removed and democratic order restored. The people responsible and its enablers brought to justice, followed by denazification of the population that had been held hostage, because of Stockholm syndrome.

Not like the Cultural revolution, that was a completely different situation. The model used in South Vietnam would be more appropriate.
 

MortyandRick

Senior Member
Registered Member
Amazing! I did not expect such an absurd rationalization.

First of all, you act as if Ukraine were not a sovereign country, but even prewar Russia recognized its independence.
How is Ukraine allegedly under 'illegal enemy occupation'? I think that it's true (though Western media prefer not
to concede it) that Ukraine's elected government was overthrown in an unconstitutional coup d'état in 2014.
But Ukraine's government now seems to have the support of most Ukrainians.

"The regime must be removed, and the people reeducated."

'Reeducated' like in China's Cultural Revolution? I met some of its victims, patriotic Chinese intellectuals.
If that's the fate that you envisage for Taiwan, it will only encourage its people to resist to the bitter end.
Can everyone please start another thread for this off topic. detailing your thoughts on this thread is useless. you’re not making anyone see your point on view and people are more entrenched than before.

be considerate and don’t get this thread shut down. I came here to read about the progress of the war, not to debate ethics. I don’t give a damn what you guys think about principles.

unless it’s a picture of Russian advance/Ukraine counter attack or another oil depot being bombed, or chechens, take it somewhere else!
 

Lapin

Junior Member
Registered Member
I'm starting to paint a picture of what you are as person, and I commend you as a good person for sticking to your principles and morals. However I don't think scolding people here about being unethical or immoral is going to change the situation on the ground, and the reason why these wars happen in the first place. For this case, US have been openly shown to be aggressive against Russia, forming alliances and plotting to bring down Russia. Ukraine just seems like the final straw for Putin, and for him it has turned into an existential struggle to keep his country's sovereignty and security. His goals for Ukraine, is only one part of the battle, remember before the war, he kept asking for NATO to revert their expansion, and to create a new security framework with EU. When he became the president of Russia, he at first were very cordial and diplomatic with the west, willing to give concessions and such to foster a cooperative environment. But after a decade of trying, it seems like the West just outright wants to destroy Russia, harvest their resources, and subjugate their people.

As for the Taiwan situation, it only became more of a problem for the CPC lately, because of the US wanting to use it as a leverage and maybe a future staging ground for their operation. This is compounded by the current administration in Taiwan, becoming more open about their intention for independence than their predecessor. I'm sure the CPC prefers the status quo from before, and would want reunification based on a modified version of "two systems, one country" used on HK. But now seeing how things have changed, those options might not seem available to them now. Its not even in China's best interest to rule over a population of Taiwan, who would be rabidly hostile to their rule, so military reunification is the last thing they want.

I personally want a peaceful reunification, and I have thought about how to do a "technical reunification" with respect to their autonomy and still be able to satisfy China's security and political needs. I will get around writing it down some day, and post it in the Taiwan strategy thread.
I can discuss and disagree, when called for, in civil terms with you or many other writers.
But I have no obligation of 'civility' toward people who persistently put words into my mouth or lie about me.

I still have concern or affection for friends in Russia (or who were there; I don't know if they have left recently).
When I was offered an opportunity to stay and make a life there, a friend strongly advised me that it would be very risky
because things were likely to get worse. So, to the disappointment of at least one person, I decided to turn the page.

The situation in Ukraine in 2022 was not an existential threat to Russia. Ukraine was far away from joining NATO.
The presence of a small minority of apparent neo-Nazis in Ukraine's military did not justify Russia's invading the country.
I would add that there are some neo-Nazi groups in Russia too.

I have long condemned US imperialism and racism in terms that have made me persona non grata to many Americans.
But at least several deluded writers here apparently fantasize that I must be an eager mouthpiece for US propaganda.

I hope that China can become such a free, prosperous, and glorious society that most people in Taiwan will want to join it.
The Chinese people have endured and suffered so much. I wish the best for them in peace.

But I believe that China should not blindly attach itself to the dangerous course of Putin's Russia.
And I am relieved that China's government seems astute enough to understand that.
 
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