Ukrainian War Developments

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Lapin

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Registered Member
Most of us are of the opinion to avoid war at all costs, but if you are going to fight, do it properly.

Americans had no problems committing genocide in Vietnam, there was very little "holding back". Neither did they in Iraq or Afghanistan. It was clear from that start that America/NATO considered their enemies subhuman.

No, the right thing would have been to find a peaceful solution and not turn a holy site for some Indians into a battlefield. Gandhi (the real one) wouldn't have attacked the Golden Temple.


If he used chemical weapons then so would the allies. It was in effect a MAD situation. He didn't have any problem using chemical warfare against his own civilians if they were Jews.

I'm not sure the point you are making. Is it admirable to put yourself and your own soldiers at risk to save civilians? Yes, but it can also be seen as dangerous. In that situation it's not appropriate to call either side good or bad and it's one of the unfortunate things that happens in war.

"He didn't have any problem using chemical warfare against his own civilians if they were Jews."

That shows (at best) a major misunderstanding of context.

Chemical warfare refers to the usage of chemical weapons in the context of a battlefield.
It does not refer to a method of execution (even mass execution) of incarcerated people.
When some US states execute prisoners in gas chambers, should the USA be criticized for using chemical warfare?

During the First World War, Hitler was temporarily blinded by a mustard gas attack.
I suspect that his personal experience resulted in some aversion toward chemical warfare.
 

Abominable

Major
Registered Member
"He didn't have any problem using chemical warfare against his own civilians if they were Jews."

That shows (at best) a major misunderstanding of context.

Chemical warfare refers to the usage of chemical weapons in the context of a battlefield.
It does not refer to a method of execution (even mass execution) of incarcerated people.
When some US states execute prisoners in gas chambers, should the USA be criticized for using chemical warfare?

During the First World War, Hitler was temporarily blinded by a mustard gas attack.
I suspect that his personal experience resulted in some aversion toward chemical warfare.
So we agree, the only reason Hitler didn't use chemical warfare was because he didn't want German soldiered subjected to it. The same reason Germany took prisoners of war.

No one here is advocating fighting wars with no rules whatsoever.
 

Lapin

Junior Member
Registered Member
I don't morally agree with the idea that 'Might makes right' or that 'the end always justifies', its just that when the other party operates under that idea while we stick to our ideals righteously, we ended up losing more battles and grounds to them, because they give themselves more room to maneuver, which in turn give them more advantages, while we become restricted by our morals.

So we're forced to either stick to our ideals or survive by abandoning temporarily, others permanently for reasons they found that made them feel its pointless or indignant.

At last, the current material conditions of the world doesn't give us a lot of choices. People fight over an ever shrinking pie of prosperity, countries over dwindling resources and territories, and over ideologies because we all like to think we know better than another over how to better govern and fix the crisis we're currently experiencing that are sadly is beyond our control.

However I can see a way forward in the future, as key technologies slowly get ever more developed like AI, fusion energy, 3D printing and synthetic biology. We maybe able to finally solve those problems that are used to be beyond our control, and finally transition to a different type of world where we no longer divide ourselves through war, borders and identities.

If you check my post history, you might get the idea that I really want to the entire western world to collapse while China become the sole hegemony. However that just the product of me learning how this world currently operates, where even if I choose not to define myself, other will do it for me, so its better for me to root the side that promises my safety and prosperity. I truly hope that the things I'm optimistic about the future becomes reality, and that I can return to the views I used to hold as a child, the view that we should all work as one, which is humanity.
My comment (which did not mention any names) was not directed at you in particular.

"I have noticed that there seem to be disturbingly many writers here who apparently believe that 'Might makes right'
and 'the end always justifies the means'. Do they apply those principles to the conduct of their personal lives as well?

Many people (including many of my relatives) regard it as only natural and right for the stronger (with more wealth or power)
to take advantage of the weaker as ruthlessly as they can. Unlike theirs, my empathy is for the exploited, not the exploiter,
for the victim, not the rapist.

I find it appalling that many writers here are apparently cheering on the destruction of Ukraine in terms of lives and culture.
Is (or was) Ukraine a glorious democracy free of racism or ethnic chauvinism as claimed by Western propaganda?
No, I could criticize much about Ukraine. But I would regard it as unjustified to kill Ukrainians on account of that criticism.

There seems to be much talk here about Ukraine allegedly being dominated by neo-Nazis, which seems much exaggerated.
As I mentioned earlier, I have met a Ukrainian nationalist whose grandfather was a leader in Stepan Bandera's forces.
He and I had a generally amicable long discussion, though we did not agree about everything. He apparently liked me.
Even if he still approved of Bandera, I would have perceived no need to kill him or to silence him.

Here's how the principle of 'might makes right' has been applied toward 'the spoils of war':
"While the battle continued, another savage onslaught was going on. It was grim and personal. The hordes of Russian troops
coming up behind the disciplined front-line veterans now demanded the rights due conquerors: the women of the conquered."
--Cornelius Ryan in _The Last Battle_

Ich bin eine Berlinerin.
 
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enroger

Junior Member
Registered Member
My comment (which did not mention any names) was not directed at you in particular.

"I have noticed that there seem to be disturbingly many writers here who apparently believe that 'Might makes right'
and 'the end always justifies the means'. Do they apply those principles to the conduct of their personal lives as well?

Many people (including many of my relatives) regard it as only natural and right for the stronger (with more wealth or power)
to take advantage of the weaker as ruthlessly as they can. Unlike theirs, my empathy is for the exploited, not the exploiter,
for the victim, not the rapist.

I find it appalling that many writers here are apparently cheering on the destruction of Ukraine in terms of lives and culture.
Is (or was) Ukraine a glorious democracy free of racism or ethnic chauvinism as claimed by Western propaganda?
No, I could criticize much about Ukraine. But I would regard it as unjustified to kill Ukrainians on account of that criticism.

There seems to be much talk here about Ukraine allegedly being dominated by neo-Nazis, which seems much exaggerated.
As I mentioned earlier, I have met a Ukrainian nationalist whose grandfather was a leader in Stepan Bandera's forces.
He and I had a generally amicable long discussion, though we did not agree about everything. He apparently liked me.
Even if he still approved of Bandera, I would have perceived no need to kill him or to silence him.

Here's how the principle of 'might makes right' has been applied toward 'the spoils of war':
"While the battle continued, another savage onslaught was going on. It was grim and personal. The hordes of Russian troops
coming up behind the disciplined front-line veterans now demanded the rights due conquerors: the women of the conquered."
--Cornelius Ryan in _The Last Battle_

Ich bin eine Berlinerin.

If you love putting yourselves on moral pedestal so much then please give some concrete evidence of "many writers here are apparently cheering on the destruction of Ukraine in terms of lives and culture."

In fact, please do name some names, I'd love to criticize them along with you. Can you do it?
 
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